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1 . 2
  S&S Swan Maintenance - Fixed Window Frames
 
 
 
27 January 2016 - 16:48
#1
 
  jayne Join Date: 05 February 2007
Posts: 99
 
  Fixed Window Frames  
  Dear All,
Has anyone replaced the fixed fiberglass window frames with some other material frame? If so, if you could be so kind as to refer who and how this was done. Thanks in advance!
Jayne
Aorangi 47/047
 
     
 
 
28 January 2016 - 08:37
#2
 
  IHe Join Date: 06 January 2012
Posts: 46
 
 
Hello Jayne and other forum members!

I had the same problem earlier and asked a friend of mine, metal work professional and a Swan owner, to produce a pair of the main window outer frames from stainless steel. His opinion was that it is possible but needs almost infinite work to fabricate them from stainless steel plate. "Infinite work" means too expensive for me.

The Italian sun was stronger than the painting on the frames so they looked a bit worn. So here's what I did before and after bringing the old lady back to home, to the Finnish waters. I'm not by no means a professional at these kind of jobs so I did a lot of mistakes to restore the frames. But You may not have to do the same mistakes again!

Done in Italy. At first I just sanded the old paint and opened and filled the cracks with a light two component epoxy fairing (that blue made by Internatonal) and spraypainted the surfaces after careful sandind. I used a 1-component aluminium look-alike alkyd paint from a autoparts strore and some 1-component clear lacquer over it. Three mistakes was done:
1. I used a filler which was too light to this job
2. I used a paint type not suitable (alkydpaint)
3. I used 1 component clear lacquer with too little protection against UV.

So the cracks opened and the frames were looking quite worn again as the paint was not enough for the sun.

Back in Finland and I thought I was a bit wiser and sanded them again and scratched all the weak blue epoxy filler away from the surfaces. As I was doing this in my workshop instead of being at the Yard under the open sky in Italy I had more time to focus on this small project. When the cracks were opened I filed all of them more wider and left the surfaces more rough to get more glueing area and better contact.

I used the filling method with west epoxy I was quite familiar with already. The frames were absolutely dry of course. I warmed the surfaces of the frames with a heatgun and added the a bit heated epoxy (its thinner when heated) to all of the surfaces. After this first layer of epoxy began to harden I applied the west-epoxy thickened to to a peanutbutter thickness. The first and the second layer of epoxy glues very well tohgether when applied at this stage. It is very strong and has very good filling and glueing properties BUT it's quite hard to sand and finish. OK, the surfaces were prepared for the painting job.

This time I used aluminium look-alike ACRYLIC paint which was recommended to this job by a carpainter. After several layers of it I sprayed a two-component lacquer on them starting with very thin layers and when the paint thickness grew up, I sprayed the final and thick layer of the lacquer with ultimate UV-protection. The first layers have to be thin so the paint under will not begin to soften from the strong thinners evaporating from the two-component lacquer.

So far the've lasted very well and I think it's time to respray them during the next 5..10 years. The finnish sun is much weaker than the one we enjoyed at the Mediterranean so I can't compare how much better I did it this time, or better at all! Time will tell.

Below is a picture of the finished product.

IHe
Swan 431-12 CAID

PS I apologize my use of the english language, I'm not a native speaker...
 
     
 

2014 at the Baltic sea, far away from the Italian SUN!
 
     
 
 
28 January 2016 - 09:02
#3
 
  IHe Join Date: 06 January 2012
Posts: 46
 
 
Sorry, I forgot to mention one important thing. The filler I used to the thickened epoxy at my final restoration was silica dust, recommended by West Systems when glueing metal-to metal or used as a very strong filling. This white silica dust is almost lighter than air and consists of very small dust like particles so You have to wear a mask not inhalate it by mistake.
 
     
 
 
28 January 2016 - 22:34
#4
 
  michael Join Date: 01 July 2010
Posts: 44
 
 
Ciao Jayne,

Roman and Suna replaced their window frames on their 65/013 SHAITAN with stainless steel in Turkey, many years ago. In 2011 it was still looking good. You might contact Roman under: shaitanofvienna@ttmail.com
or find more photos under: www.shaitansailing.com

Kind regards, Michael
 
     
 
 
28 January 2016 - 22:38
#5
 
  michael Join Date: 01 July 2010
Posts: 44
 
 
Here is a photo of the stainless window frames on SHAITAN 65013....
 
     
 

 
     
 
 
29 January 2016 - 18:49
#6
 
  the professor Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1145
 
 
Dear Jayne
Would suggest that G-10 epoxy-glass sheet could also be used for new frames. Can be shaped with woodworking tools, but needs to be painted.
Kind regards
Lars
 
     
 
 
31 January 2016 - 09:05
#7
 
  jayne Join Date: 05 February 2007
Posts: 99
 
 
Thank you Lars, Michael, and IHe for all of your considerations. We will be evaluating all as when we remove the existing ones to see the state that they are actually in. Was originally leaning to Inox, but it is far too expensive here to do it well so probably will choose one of the other solutions. Thanks again. Jayne Aorangi 47/047
 
     
 
 
31 January 2016 - 10:29
#8
 
  IHe Join Date: 06 January 2012
Posts: 46
 
 
Hi Jayne, from my experience I'd go the restoration route again if I had to choose. The original frames are quite strongly built from GRP and the cracks were only superficial and easy to fix with silica thickened epoxy. Their purpose is cosmetical only and has nothing to do with holding the actual windows in their places.

The cross-section of the frame profile is much too complex to produce from stainless steel as the original profile is not rectangle and has to be shaped to the original form with a steel milling cutter from a thick SS plate (10..12mm).
And polished to a mirror surface of course ... ;)

Not a DIY job except the polishing part of it.


IHe 431-12 CAID
 
     
 
 
31 January 2016 - 10:49
#9
 
  matteosalamon Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 636
 
 
Dear Jayne,

as far as I understand GRP was used by Nautor because being the same material used for the deck they behave exactly the same, they expand and shrink same way when it gets hot/cold.

Stainless steel, apart being much more expensive and difficult to work, has a very different reaction to heat/cold and there is a concrete risk in a few years you are going to have some leaks.

I agree with IHE, restoring the old ones (be very gentle and patient when dismantling them) should not be a great problem.

Next year, when I will do the cosmetic on Vanessa I will certainly go for restoring the original one!

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)
 
     
 
 
31 January 2016 - 13:08
#10
 
  michael Join Date: 01 July 2010
Posts: 44
 
 
Dear All,

me thinks that Matteo is right about refurbishing the original frames. We did this on 47/013, with some difficulties, but in the end, it was well worth the effort.

It was not overly difficult to pry the GRP frames free without breaking them, going through the silicon with a sharp cutter. The frames were cracked in places though, and needed to be epoxied here and there, before preparing them for the new paint. The difficulty was getting rid of the silicon, both on the boat and on the frames, in order to get a sprayable surface. I found some pictures showing the window refit on VERA, but can only upload one now. Good luck to everybody doing the same!

Kind regards, Michael (47/013 VERA)
 
     
 

 
     
 
 
01 February 2016 - 04:16
#11
 
  Odiss Join Date: 30 November 2011
Posts: 12
 
 
Hi all
On my boat i save the existing frames, just send them fill up small holes and dents with hard polyester mastic and respray them with 1coat of mix of neutral gelcoat and aluminum powder, and two coats of neutral gel coat on top.


Kind regards
Odiss( Swan 44/2 "Kiprida")
 
     
 

Before respray
 
     
 

After first coat
 
     
 
 
25 January 2017 - 13:50
#12
 
  matteosalamon Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 636
 
 

Dear All,

I have now the very same problem. I tried to dismantle the two fixed GRP frames, but unfortunately some previous shipwright, in 2000, glued them so well that they are getting in pieces when we try to get them out.

I tried to find someone who could work with G-10 as suggested by Lars but could not find one, at least not in Italy and among the reliable people I know.

I now have two options:

1- rebilt the frames in polished stainless steel

2- rebult the frames in anodized alluminum.

I would go for the second choice, but would like to hear comments from you friends

Thanks a lot!

Fair winds

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

 
     
 
 
25 January 2017 - 21:50
#13
 
  martin Join Date: 05 August 2010
Posts: 83
 
 

Dear Matteo,

in any case, I hope you can save the old frames to use as a template.

When taking the old frames off 48/039, I encountered the same problem as you -- they were glued in very well and everything but easy to get off. It took a lot of patience, slow work, a number of wedges and very thin cutting blades. Fortunately, I could save them all. I then spent a lot of time getting rid of the silicone ...

In comparison to the original GRP frames, G10 or G11 is much less flexible. The material is very stiff, very strong, quite heavy, very hard, but surprisingly easy to work. It is perfectly possible to cut it with a saw, but I would then suggest a bandsaw. G-Plate is also easy to shape with a belt sander. The hollow inside of the frames can be created with a Dremel-like tool. The most important thing is that you do not really need someone who is familiar with the material. Anyone who can produce a wooden frame could work G-plate. You could probably do it yourself, if you dare to tackle something that is so openly visible ...

I used G11 to replace one of the aluminium backing plates for the deck padeyes (see pic). The backing plates are not something I'd normally check, as they are glassed in, but I had major deck work and had to open the ceiling to get at the nuts -- and found this one backing plate corroded. So I made a replacement part. It took maybe half an hour cut the part and to get it to fit, but of course, nobody will see the part on the boat so I did not spend a lot of time on finer work. I did other pieces as well, but have no pics.

So, do not be afraid of G-plate. It is actually quite easy to work with. I simply ordered a sheet and cut as needed. However, being so strong, the frames would be very stiff and not easy to bend. The old ones are actually quite flexible. I am not sure how important that difference is, but Lars would know -- it will depend on the curvature of the fixed windows (which, on a 48, are completely flat, but I do not know about the 47).

Best,

Martin

 

 
     
 

Backing plate for padeye
 
     
 
 
25 January 2017 - 22:33
#14
 
  matteosalamon Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 636
 
 

Dear Martin,

thanks a lot, you are always very helpful and knowledgeable!

Where could I buy G-10 ar far as you know?

Fair winds

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

 
     
 
 
25 January 2017 - 22:44
#15
 
  matteosalamon Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 636
 
 

last minute update:

They finally got out in one piece, in perfect shape!

So, I now have just to fill in the small old cracks and paint them. I am interestend in finding G-10 anyway, as backing plate, so, looking forward to hering from you soon dear Martin!

Thanks a lot and fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

 
     
 

 
     
 

 
     
 
 
26 January 2017 - 06:43
#16
 
  martin Join Date: 05 August 2010
Posts: 83
 
 

Dear Matteo,

congratulations for getting the frames off without breaking them -- that is certainly the very best solution!

I ordered G-plate from Masterplatex in Germany (www.masterplatex.de). I will attach the full link below. They do have an English version on the website, but unfortunately it looks very much like a computer-generated translation of some of the German information. In the case of G11, only the title line was translated, but none of the technical information. So if you are interested, I would be willing to translate the pertinent information.

Fair winds and deep waters,

Martin

http://www.masterplatex.de/epages/62236671.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F62236671%2FCategories%2F%22Glashartgewebe%2C%20GFK%22%2FGFK-Platten%2F%22Typ%3A%20G11%22

 
     
 
 
27 January 2017 - 09:47
#17
 
  the professor Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1145
 
 

Dear Matteo and All Swan 47 Owners

 
Nautor Spareparts inform that they can still supply the GRP side window frames for this model. 
Kind regards
Lars
 
     
 
 
28 January 2017 - 15:47
#18
 
  jayne Join Date: 05 February 2007
Posts: 99
 
  Original message:

Dear Matteo and All Swan 47 Owners

 
Nautor Spareparts inform that they can still supply the GRP side window frames for this model. 
Kind regards
Lars



 
 

Thank you Lars, That certainly is good news for all.   Luckily we were able to take the restoration route for Aorangi, and congrads Matteo for the same option becoming available.  They are a lot stronger than they look...I still have a question regarding the alluminum/alloy profile that was around the inside of the window.  We were not able to save these, so wondering how others resolved this, if resolved.  I hung curtains...Jayne / Aorangi 47/047

 
     
 
 
28 January 2017 - 18:17
#19
 
  matteosalamon Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 636
 
 

Dear Martin,

thanks a lot, of course I will ask your help if I can't get it, but hope not to bother you with this!

:-)

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

 
     
 
 
28 January 2017 - 18:19
#20
 
  matteosalamon Join Date: 29 January 2007
Posts: 636
 
 

Dear Jayne,

wouldn't be possible to get new frames in wood instead of the original aluminum ones? I can imagine with some time dedication and patience you could get templates from the old one and cut new wooden frames.

Fair winds!

matteo (47/069 Vanessa)

 
     
 
 
14 February 2017 - 11:01
#21
 
  philippe Join Date: 16 February 2007
Posts: 194
 
 

God day dear all,

Two years ago, I had to do something about the window frames on Farouche. The original one were not leaking but quite worn out. To make a long story short, I opted for brushed stainless steel frames with a proper sealing. The result is very good and the look is very nice. 

There is no reason for them to leak if the seal is right. 

Please see pics

 
     
 

Brushed stainless steel window frames on Frouche
 
     
 
 
 
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