redesigning deck lay out on classic swan

The questions will follow at the end....

I have noticed that some older S&S swans have had their deck hardware rig rigging refitted with in the process also altering the original deck lay-out. When asking about the motivation to alter the deck layout the answers were always "to declutter" and "to make more efficient". Owners always pointed out the fact that there has been a big advance in hardwear design but also much more experience has been built up sailing. One of the changes to decks I have seen and have the biggest questionmark about is to, for instance on a 47, to delete the 4 genua tracks and to replace them with a newer design (harken in this case) fitted very close and parallel to the coach roof. If I look at deck lay out of the newer Swans they have an identical placement of the Genua track.  I am quoting the owners response as it is a typical one:

"As to the genoa tracks:  we replaced the old Lewmar T track with modern Harken X Track.  This new track supports ball bearing type genoa cars and 4-part purchase controls which enables repositioning of the cars while under load, a huge improvement!  The old double tracks made it possible to adjust the genoa lead by switching sheets from one to the other......a cumbersome and slow procedure.  To adjust the lead more outboard a barber haul to the aluminum rail is the proper answer for more perfect trim when racing.  The objective we pursued at the time of our teak deck replacement was to unclutter  the deck generally.  The original layout had no self-tailing winches......hence more winches and cleats and track and padeyes all over the place making the deck difficult to navigate.  Now all winches are self-tailing with well positioned rope clutches.  The new layout requires less stuff underfoot to trip on and is in fact more functional than the original.  Bear in mind that we had raced and cruised the boat for 12 years before we redesigned the deck arrangements and any Swan sailor will tell you that it is a huge improvement over the original.  But there are hardware options which are available now which were not available in 1976."

Questions:

What is the forums view on these kind of alterations:

a) Does it really represent that much of an improvement and should it always be considered when for instance having to replace a teak deck anyway, even when a boat is used primarily for cruising.

b) Do changes like this negatively impact the originality of the boat, making it more difficult to resell, impossible to take part in certain regatta's etc?

thank you

Wiebe

I will probably shift to the Harken set up on my 40. Quite efficient and is perfect for trimming the roller furling genoas and jibs most of us use for cruising. As you roll up the genoa one should reposition the car. As for selftailers, have gone this route and it makes life much easier. Make sure to go up a size as it makes grinding in the big overlapping genoas a lot easier!!! As far as the main sheet, I have shifted to a Harken setup with a coarse tune and a tweeker no winch. Excellent set up both for single hand and racing. Got the idea from the J35. I keep all my halyards on the mast where I am going to a couple of self tailing Andersens and jam cleats. As far as spinnaker gear, I have gone to an asym and stuffer making life easier as well. My spinnaker winches are the originals , I should have left them off when I redid the deck. All my changes are made to make things more effiecent for one man to handle but they also help when racing.

Cheers
Mike

Storm Svale

I will probably shift to the Harken set up on my 40. Quite efficient and is perfect for trimming the roller furling genoas and jibs most of us use for cruising. As you roll up the genoa one should reposition the car. As for selftailers, have gone this route and it makes life much easier. Make sure to go up a size as it makes grinding in the big overlapping genoas a lot easier!!! As far as the main sheet, I have shifted to a Harken setup with a coarse tune and a tweeker no winch. Excellent set up both for single hand and racing. Got the idea from the J35. I keep all my halyards on the mast where I am going to a couple of self tailing Andersens and jam cleats. As far as spinnaker gear, I have gone to an asym and stuffer making life easier as well. My spinnaker winches are the originals , I should have left them off when I redid the deck. All my changes are made to make things more effiecent for one man to handle but they also help when racing. Cheers Mike Storm Svale

Why keep the halyards on the mast and not lead them aft to the cockpit as you see on so many newer boats? Is that because of the design of your coach roof?

Wiebe

Why keep the halyards at the mast? Very good question.

I wish I could move them aft but, to date, I have not solved the problem of their routing.
On a 411 and on other Swans it appears that the only way to perform this is by getting rid of the Dorade boxes. This does not seem a reasonable thing to do.

I surely will welcome an alternative solution but until then I have chosen to stay with the (uncomfortable) original setup.

Similar to Daniel I have decided that re-routing is a major exercise. To be honest not sure of the benifits considering if something does go wrong (Murphy) you have to go forward anyway then scramble back to the cockpit. Working at the mast you are better able to see problems developing than when grinding head down in the cockpit. Not to mention the added spagetti you would have in the cockpit.

The modern setups are nice though.


Mike

Storm Svale

Dear Friends,

I just relaunched ONLY YOU (38/067) after a 8 months major refit (teack deck etc:) and I eliminated 7 winches and 11 cleats from the deck, added some stoppers on the mast, cut 1.5 m. of genoa track..., and even if I did not yet have sea trials (she's been relounched yesterday), I think I have greatly improuved her, speaking of manouvrability and beauty.

Fair wind!

Matteo (38/067 Only You)

Beautiful!! Going back to my responses I seem to be focused on the technical rather than the esthetic. Removing all those winches and cleats certainly gives nice clean lines. Matteo, have you decided to keep halyards etc at the mast? I guess so but..

Matteo, could you share with us what the changes are? Do you have pictures? And why are the tracks 1,5 meter shorter, did Nautor not know what they were doing or do you have a different sail plan? Thx Wiebe

Dear Mike and Wiebe,

I asked two professional riggers (one of them was the guy entrusted to design AC Mascalzone Latino deck plan) to help me to re-design my deck plan, which was originally designed by S&S back in 1972 (...!!!...), when they had no stoppers, no self tailing winches and used to sail with 180% genoas...(I have two genoas, one 135% and the second one 110%, plus a storm one, no 180% any more...do you?)

I have now six stoppers on the mast and two self tailing winches, one each side of it, so I could get rid of six winches on the deck, one on cockpit (for the main sheet), eleven cleats.

Attached is a design of the old and new deck plan, please let me know if you want me to send some more pics.

Fair wind!

Matteo (38/067 Only You)

Hi Matteo,

Pictures of the mast set up would be nice. I have 4 Barlows on the mast and was planning to go to 2 selftailing Andersens with stoppers to handle 2 main halyards, 2 genoa halyards and two spinnaker halyards. You have probably done exactly this and it would be nice to see your setup. Also I noticed you removed your deck mounted spinnaker winches, used for either the sheets or the guys depending upon your flavor. Have you gone completely over to an asymetrical or are you handling these in the cockpit?

All the best

Mike
Storm Svale

Dear Mike
I don't cruise with the spinnaker (as we are just me and my wife -and a small terrier which is of no help- we cruise with the asymetrical), and I don't like races. Anyway I removed the two small (16) Lewmar winches for the tripping line and not the big ST ones (48) for the sheets/guy. I am getting the tripping line throught the roller furling genoa circuit which I dismantle when racing (or getting a second circuit on stb side).
I will post new detailed pics on monday
Fair winds and have a good week end!
Matteo (38/067 Only You)

I know I am rather late on this one but I have been away sailing my 411 Wotan. The previous owner set the boat up for racing and removed the dorade boxes and grab rails by the companion way. Now all the halyards, reefing lines, spi uphauls and downhauls come back to two winches at the companion way. I have put bags each side of the liferaft, which is forward of the companionway, to hold the ropes. I don't think it looks particularly 'Classic' but it certainly works. I don't race myself but I am delighted to have two spi up and down hauls to take twin boomed out headsails in the trade winds. I have recently put a winch on boss on the mast, so that I can raise the main and reesingle handed in need. All the winches are now self tailing, which makes life a lot easier for a light crew.  Anthony Fawcett