Instability of quadrant mounted on rudder stock in Swan 40

Problems of instability of rudder quadrant.

I think this is a question directed to the “Professor”, but may be some other owners of Swan 40´s have experienced the same problem. I have observed some instability of the quadrant for the wires to the steering wheel that is mounted on the rudderstock of my Swan 40. As the rudderstock is situated behind the diesel tank between the berths in the aft cabin it is almost impossible to reach and inspect its fixation.  I just wonder if there is some way to reach it and inspect the fixation of the quadrant in order to find out if there is any screw or nut that has started to get loosing up without dismantling the diesel tank.  I am of course not quite happy to have such an essential part of the steering system without a possibility to inspect for maintenance.  I have consequently also thought about moving the diesel tank, e g under the aft parts of the berths in the aft cabin, and this question will be accentuated if I now have to remove the tank to have a possibility to inspect the steering system. On the other hand there might be problems to have two tanks with communication without some sort of cock to hinder that the fuel is moving from one tank to the other while the boat is healing over during tacking.

Best regards

Dear Leif

There are two possible reasons for excessive play in the steering - the quadrant to stock connection is loose, or the rudder blade to stock connection is loose. To find out which one it is put the emergency tiller in place, and pull on the wheel and rudder blade while holding the tiller fixed.

Can you see the quadrant to stock connection with the help of a mirror?

 Kind regards

Lars

Not a fun place to play!!! I know i have been in there a lot in my 40. I changed the rudder bearing a few years ago and this necessitated taking out the rudder. To do this I had to make myself as small as possible. You have to get to it via the cockpit locker. Think Houdini A question. Do you have a lot of play in your steering? i.e. can you move the wheel a bit 2-3 cm without moving the rudder. If so you have a bearing problem. A sloppy bearing will also cause the quadrant to move. I had slop in the steering and a wobbly quadrant and the new bearing solved the problem. If you have any midget friends now is a good time to start bribing them.

Hope this helps!
Mike
Stormsvale

The problem is that the quadrant essentially moves a little up and down in vertical direction, not to the sides. Consequently I do not know if it would help then to use the emergency tiller as Lars suggests. Even when I have fixed the rudder stock using the screw on the stand for the steering wheel in the cockpit, the quadrant may move somewhat up and down when there is a lot of waves and make a slight noise. Of course you feel somewhat uneasy as you do not know exactly what it is that is loose.

Lars suggests to use a mirror. However there is really not very much distance between the top of the diesel tank and the quadrant and my hands are too big and I am quite certain that I will then loose it easily behind the tank…. Lars:  Is there any drawing of the steering construction, this would be helpful as I then could better know what I have to look for in the mirror?

I had hoped to be able to come in from the stern through the opening under the helmsman seat, but then there is a bulkhead behind the rudder stock.

Unfortunately in this situation I am personally not the midget type, being a man of 186 cm and 81 kg and age does not make me more flexible.  I had a lot of space problems when I some years ago opened the diesel tank in order to clean it, so I am well aware of the limited space there is and know what Mike talks about from his experience in Stormsvale. Of course I agree with Mike that the situation would thus be a good opportunity to get use of midget persons like small and handy grandchildren, but it is difficult to instruct them when you do not know exactly what they should look for or do. Mike´s suggestion that it is the bearing that is the missing link seems reasonable. However it means that the only thing to do is to wait and act when the boat is on shore, which unfortunately soon is the case as the summer season here up in the north has ended. But the limited space around the rudder stock is still there.

I am still wondering if this is a reason to also move the dieseltank to another place in the boat in order to make service and life easier for the future. Any comments on this?

Leif (Sunniva V)

Hi Leif,

To be honest, it does not take a midget. I am 174 cm and 84 Kilos but it helps. I did get stuck in there once while working alone in the hall where she was stored for the winter. Took an hour to get out. The real problem is getting in and out of the locker. Once you are in it is not that bad, BUT definitely not fun. Anyway, from my limited experience you can't get to the bearing and the rudder stock from forward but have to come at it aft. Even if you remove the tank you still have to come at the bolts clamping the quadrant to the rudder stock from the aft locker. Any other way you do not have the leverage to remove the nuts/bolts (have seen both used) unless you are using a pneumonic socket driver. I hope your system is not corroded. Mine was the first time when I put in the bearing. This past year I loosened things again to put in the hydraulic ram for an autopilot.
A few years back I saw hull number 2. They had removed the fuel tank and put in a hydraulic steering system. For the diesel tanks they had put one under the starboard settee and a stainless steel one in the bilge.

As for when, yes best out of the water... winter is coming.. rats!!!

Hope this helps

Mike and the crew of Stormsvale.

Just noticed this
"I had hoped to be able to come in from the stern through the opening under the helmsman seat, but then there is a bulkhead behind the rudder stock."

My way in is to dive in head first, and slide along the hull above the water line on the starboard side (my gas locker is on the port side and blocks access) then once past the scuppers ( well part of me is) you can get a good look at everything. At that point you could get someone to turn the wheel and see the movement around the gland where the bearing sits. Functions like the stuffing box on the propeller shaft. If you have a small leak there you can start to suspect the bearing. YOu could also tighten the locking nut a little and see if that helps a) the leak and b) the movement of the rudder post.

Cheers

Mike

Thank you Mike for your comments and suggestions. They are most welcome and I am now well aware of the fact that you really know what practical problems we are talking about. Unfortunately in Sunniva both sides are blocked from the entrance through the helmsman seat as I have the original gas locker on the port side, like you obviously, and a Webasto heater on starboard.  Well, as I do not accept bottled gas to be used in boats, as long as the gas is heavier than air and consequently will sink and accumulate in the bilge, I have a nice Origo alcohol stove with oven in my kitchen nowadays . Consequently, I could may be dismantle the gas locker on the port side under the helmsman seat and test your recommendation to slide down along the port side inside the hull to inspect my rudder stock. (It seems from your experience to be recommended to have somebody to help me come out again, as I do not want to spend the winter season there). I will tell you how I solved the problem and if I was successful in coming out, when Sunniva is on shore after a few more weeks. By the way when do you take Stormsvale out of water?  Until then fair winds, Leif

Leif and Mike

There is no problem to tight the wires to the steering wheel, they seem also to be OK and there is no slack. It seems more and more that there is some problem with the bearing of the rudder stock I presume.

Lars, do you think one could move the diesel tank up under deck behind the helmsman seat just close to the stern, there seems to be some space that is not much used and difficult to reach for other purposes. It would also be easier to fill the tank without air “bubbling up” in the tubing from deck to the tank. And may be also easier to empty the lower part of the tank  for trash and water if there is a cock below the outlet for the tubing giving diesel to the engine. The question is of course if it would lead to too much weight in the stern part of the hull leading to less balance on the water line. Leif

Hi Leif,
You have identified the hard part...getting out!
Anyway, Lars is right, tightening the gland is a temporary fix. If it is the bearing then you will need to change it. They last a long time but everything wears over time. Changing the bearing is a pain. Getting the rudder out is not bad, getting it back in is something else. I did it but would suggest this is a job for a professional. It does not take long but is a bit tricky.
Stormsvale comes out mid October and we are hoping for a couple of day sails. It will be a busy winter as we are preparing for a Transatlantic next year. Lots to do but luckily no projects in the Houdini zone.

Good Luck
Mike

Leif

Leham, Lesson Learnt and shared

Make sure when changing bearings that everybody fully understand the expansion coefficient of the replacemnt material used. The yard fitting mine had to rework them after 3 months which means removing the rudder again!!!

Swan 411 Avista

John Bailey