Staysail tension

I have a permanently fitted furling staysail on my 411. Has anybody got experence of how to set the correct tension. I start by releasing the tension on the back stay then tighten the forestay, but have problems getting the correct tension on the staysail. As soon as I harden up on the back stay to tighten the forestay, slack develops on the stay sail.   Should I over tighten the staysail in the first instance?  

John B  411-010

I am not an expert and I am interested in learning from experts who will surely intervene but this is what I think as a "theoretician".

First our boats are not thought as Cutters so we either sail them with a genoa and a main or with a staysail on the babystay and a strongly reduced main (trysail).

In the first case the main fore-aft standing rigging for first-order tuning are the forestay and the backstay only; the babystay and the runners are used for second-order tuning (in order to avoid mast pumping, for example).

In the second case the main fore-aft standing rigging function is taken over by the babystay and the runners while the stay and the backstay become second-order helpers.

Summarizing:
1) the use of both genoa and staysail is discouraged and when in port keep the rigging tightened just the minimum necessary to avoid eccessive shaking. I do not know any particular rule.
2) if you sail with the genoa, you start with a babystay not tightened and only after having properly tuned the backstay for wind and whatever, you move the babystay slider forward untill you eliminate the bending of the babystay. Not too much because you may unwillingly curve the mast; in this case the use of the runners is probably also recommended.
3) If you sail with the staysail you will act mainly on the babystay and runners and tighten the backstay just the necessary to avoid shaking of the rolled genoa and the upper rigging.

Daniel, 411/004

Daniel:

I'm no expert either, but that all seems very well said and correct. I've wondered if anyone flies the staysail along with a headsail like a cutter. I guess you could, but why (related to that, when, what point of sail, what wind conditions)? When I bought my 411, the runners had been taken off, the babystay was aboard but not in use, and there were no sails to call for them. I've got a staysail now (hank on), trysail, runners, etc, intended though only for tough winds - I've yet to need to fly them. The one thing I wonder from John is - don't you find the babystay to be an impediment to ordinary sailing and tacking? I generally take mine aft and tie it off so I can tack without snagging on it. The only other thing I can say that might be helpful to John getting that babystay to firm up a little and not flop around so much is to maybe use an adjustable latch at the deck connection - one with a folding handle that ratchets, although I wonder with the setup that you have in place if there's room for it under the drum?
Best wishes for a warm spring - here in WI it has been warm and I'm hoping for an early launch.

Geoff, Corazon, 411 #41

Daniel / Geoff. I frequently sail singlehanded this is why I fitted the staysail permanently. We had a lot of debate on the forum about wether to fit a second furler behind the Genoa furler, I choose a cutter rig. My No 2 Genoa which is 135% has a high cut clew improving visabilty, but after a few furls looses shape despite a foam luff. The sail design does show that 411 can be cutter rigged. On larger Swans this is the norm.  I use the rig when closed hauled in strong winds F5/6+ either as a cutter or with just the staysail set and 1/2/3 reefs in the mainsail. Very easy to reduce sail when short handed. C of E brought to the centre of the yacht also gives good balance on the helm. This works for me. I sometimes also set the staysail on a reach. The check stays are used when the staysail is flown to support the mast and stop mast pumping. The checkstays are taken out of the way to the shrouds in light weather. Short tacking with the staysail singlehanded is no problem, but short tacking with the genoa is a bit more of a problem, less so if it is partially furled. I hope one of the owners of larger Swans will comment as they have first hand knowledge of how to tension perminantly rigged staysails.        

411 has quite a tall mast and in order to reduce mast pumping it's necessary to pre-bend the mast by adjusting the mast shoe backwards. This trim ensures that the mast doesn't pump backwards from straight position, which could be fatal for the mast. In this trim it is normal that when you tighten the back stay, the mast bends more, meaning that the midle part including the inner forestay top moves forewards and the inner forestay looses its tension. I think Daniele has already explained what to do;  you must control the inner forestay tension with runners when using staysail. I also think that in general originally cutter rigged boats have douple lower shrouds to stiffen the mast in longitudial direction.

Fair winds,

Ilkka, 411/006

Dear John
Confirming the earlier contributions I would like to provide this advice.
If the mast is bent too much it goes out of column, and can not support the compression from headstay/backstay properly. If backstay load is increased the mast just bends more, headstay sag does not decrease and the inner forestay will go slack.
It would therefore be advisable to keep mast bend to less than one mast diameter, and use the runners to control this.
What backstay loads do you use?
Your staysail stay appears to be further forward than original
Kind regards Lars

Guys, thanks for your feedback. With the yacht level on her marks I set up 9 inchs of rake measured at the goose neck. I achive this by sliding the mast step backwards or forwards, the axis being the Spartite at the through deck mast collar.  I then tighten the rig down. Any further rake and bend is achieved by tension on the backstay.  I am not sure how you can get any pre-bend with inline spreaders. When using the staysail I always use the checkstays to support the rig. I also use them when hard pressed upwind and the rig starts to pump. I tighten the backstay to increase the tension on the forestay, but as Lars suggests never more than the top of the mast bending back a further 3 inchs which is approximatelly 50% of the diameter of the mast. When sailing in Force 3/4 this gives some weather helm normaly one spoke of the wheel. I can remember Olin saying more than 2 spokes of weather helm and your either overpowered or the rig is not set up correctly.  Normally the lee rail is underwater with 2 spokes which then is definately slowing me down. 

Lars, I will check the pressure I put on with the hydrualic backstay. From research I did, I understood that the staysail had to be parallel to the forestay, which is what I have achieved.     

Lars, I went out for the first sail this Saturday and the Navtec hydraulic tensioner shows 2KPSI on the gauge when the forestay is tight. I think this is OK relative to the wire size.

John B 411-010

Lars, I went out for the first sail this Saturday and the Navtec hydraulic tensioner shows 2KPSI on the gauge when the forestay is tight. I think this is OK relative to the wire size.

I am sorry for being picky but the number you give is a pressure (psi = lbf per sq inch) while the tension is a force (lbf); the area of the piston should be accounted for.
Assuming that your stay tensioner is a model -22, the Navtec conversion table gives: 2 kpsi -> 5600 lbf.
This is approximately 30% of the Minimum Breaking Strength of a 10mm 1x19 AISI 316 wire.
If you have a different tensioner model or a different wire, the numbers change.

Daniel, 411/004