fair prices for early swans 40 36 and 37

I am considering the purchase of one of these early models. One of the factors I am takng into consideration choosing between them is making a financially sound decision. I do get the impression that it makes sense to buy a well maintained yacht rather than a "fix it upper" as the price differences between ones needing TLC and the ones in prestine condition almost never seem to be as big as cost of refitting. For instance I am looking at a well maintained 40 for sale for 125 k euro's and I have never seen a decent 40 in need of a new teak deck etc for less than 80 on this side of the pond. Having said that 125 k is also the steepest price I have ever seen for a 40'. There is also a 36 available for about 55k euro needing a total refit including decks by the looks of it where there is at least 1 other, which looks well looked after available for 80 k.

Having said all that I would like to get some confirmation that my assumptions are right. Can the forum give me a better feeling for what a fair price range is for the swan 40 37 and 36's, assuming the boats have been maintained properly, there is no need for major work as any work needed was done 5-10 years ago and are recently equipped (no need for sails etc etc). I am especially interested in finding out if the 125 k Euro asking price for the 40 is steep and by how much.

Thank you

Wiebe Bouman

Good question. From my experience the owner always wants more than the boat is worth..selling memories is not easy. Determining a fair price is tough. It depends on the quality of the boat which is not always that easy to establish. Like any used item price is negotiable. If it has been on the market for a while there are usually reasons and the price may be soft. Anyway, if you find one you like, first get a knowledgeable friend to take a look. Make a list of issues. If they think it is reasonable get a good surveyor and go over the boat with them and get their thoughts on quality what needs to be fixed and how much repairs will cost. Update your issues list and discuss price and repairs with the owner.
I personally bought a fixer upper and spent less than I would have if I had bought the best one on the market. BUT I have done 80% of the work myself. For me this means if it breaks while out there I have a good idea how to fix it and can. But this approach means you are always playing with something just like classic cars, motorcyles and old houses... all have character but this means more effort. If you are going to pay someone to do the work it could/will be costly. So, if you don't want to work on it much yourself (you will have to do some regardless)get the best one available as this will probably be the cheapest in the long run. Personally I like working on my boat almost as much as I like sailing her so for me the fixer upper that I could sail almost (OK it took two years, but that is another story/ adventure) right away was the right way to go.

36 vs 37 vs 40.
Which one. They are all great boats. Ask yourself what you want to do with it. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. For me the 40 has more interior space and the two quarter berths mean my kids each have a private space of their own. All sail well and are good strong sea boats. Budget and use are the key. We seem as a community to be going to bigger and bigger boats but many crusiers prefer under 40 as they are easier to handle short handed and cheaper to maintain.
Another test. Go and sit in and on one of each. On which one do you feel you can live.

Running costs. Increasing the size means more for mooring, storage, insurance, haul outs etc etc. These vary locally and from marina to marina so I would suggest you visit a few local marinas and find out a) the differences in cost and b) the availability of mooring.
If you need to replace sails and hardware again the bigger the boat the more you pay. The quality will ultimately determine your upper and lower levels e.g. North sails vs Lee sails. Big price differences. Same with engines, winches .......

A boat in great shape will require less in maintence annually but does require work, through hulls, bottom paint zincs..sail repair, winterizing you will also probably be updating electronics etc. We have a boat budget which I always go over... I NEED THAT SOLAR PANEL!!!!
I have heard it said that the two happiest times in a boat owners life are when they are a) buying and b) have sold their boats.

Still in love with mine so ... not for sale.
Enjoy.

Mike
Storm Svale
S&S Swan 40.

This is so true! Could not agree more... Do not have that much to add to this very rational and methodogical explanation. I would have to agree as well and your comment "the best is when you buy and then sale" made me smile..... I did that so many time as I did own various boats and cannot stop myself to appreciate their beauty at of course a certain price as I still own one .... I guess with time you become a bit more realistic and figure out your needs and priorities… Mine is a pleasure to sail, always something to do and care about. I do as well mostly everything myself as I do want to know what condition she is in… It is a commitment even when you do not sail and a partnership of trust you will be proud of when she will shine on top of the waves…

Vincent Swan 38 hull 107

Weibe;

I am astonished at European prices for Swans. I believe you would be well advised to investigate the US market. I believe there as several 41's for sale at about US$125. I know that's close to what I paid for mine.

John 

Weibe;

I have to say that the difference between US prices and European prices are a surprise to me aswell. I have discussed it with a number of brokers and they agree as well. Especially with the bigger boats (for some less of an issue to sail accross rather then to ship) the difference is too big and absolutely not explained by changing the electronics and paying VAT. It all depends though on weather you can/want to sail it over yourself, shipping seems to be expensive.

Wiebe

I can only talk from the point of view of someone who bought a 1972 Swan 40  two years ago "in good condition for its age" for about 80,000 Euro.      The hull had already been given anti-osmosis treatment by a reputable, specialised German company.   The mast had been replaced after an accident during winter storage.     Sails were almost new.   I knew the original teak deck needed replacing and all the electrical, electronic and water systems were original, so not exactly modern.    The Volvo engine was okish but on my list for replacement sooner rather than later.

Apart from the general good condition for a boat of this age I was shown all maintenance bills and winter storage bills (indoor storage for 6 months a year makes a tremendous difference to overall condition).      I had a survey done in Germany but wouldn't waste my money again and would pay the extra to bring in a U.K. surveyor.  I am not being nationalistic, just the result of comparing the 3 surveys I have had carried out during my boat ownership adventures.

I could have caulked the old deck and sailed it as it was for a few years for the original 80,000 Euros + 10,000 for some cosmetic work.     I saw another one at about the same price which I considered was not in such good condition.      However for that price most of my boat would have been 35 years old.

I decided to go for a major refit by Walsteds in Denmark, whose work is of the highest quality but not cheap with 25% Danish VAT.   Now I have a new boat (teak deck, engine, electrical and water systems, electronics, interior, etc. etc).      No structural problems have appeared (hull/keel and hull/deck joint perfect, no water in deck or coachroof, only a little play between rudder stock and rudder which was easily fixed).     However, I have spent several times the original purchase price and I would certainly not sell her for 125,000 Euros.

CONCLUSION: trust your own opinion about the boat, ask to see full maintenance and insurance records, try to get info about the boat's history and find a surveyor who crawls into all the dark corners with the boat out of the water (you have to hope he will find any major structural problems, otherwise the general condition you can determine for yourself).      If you can find a boat which has had a recent, major refit for 125,000 Euro buy it, but realistically an owner who is selling will have delayed major investments unless he is forced to sell for financial or health reasons.     It then becomes a question of what your priorities are for your boat and how much it will cost to achieve the standard you want in relation to the asking price.  

I have not factored in any "falling in love" cost    

Good luck,

Richard Forrest 

I bought my 40 in the late 90s in Baltimore even then the US prices were lower. I think with dollar where it is and the general state of the US economy leasure items are being sold off. Smaller and older boats fit into this mold. Bigger new boats tend to be the domain of those with less financial constraints so are less likely to be effected. Anyway S&S Swans seem to be very reasonable right now in the US possibly for this reason. An example of the dollar status issue right now is Willow Wind a 40 in Florida looks like a good buy at the moment. Sailing her across would be one of those life experiences... I sailed mine across and it was an experience I will never forget and would do again tomorrow!

By the way Richards boat is beautiful. She lives about a km from mine. I agree with him, buy the best possible, unless you want to do the work yourself.