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Sail & Rigging - Spinnaker vs. Genaker or Code Zero
23 February 2009 - 14:35
#1
Join Date: 16 February 2007
Posts: 199

Spinnaker vs. Genaker or Code Zero

Dear Friend,

Please do share your experience and wisdom with me on this issue:

Nowadays, I sail alone or with my wife, for most of the time. At times, with an occasional friend.The spinnaker on Farouche, our Swan47/50, do not get used very often. This, because of the need of being 3-4 adults on board to manoeuvre the whole thing.

I am contemplating the idea of investing in a Genaker or a Code Zero with a fixed bowsprit. Would such thing on our venerable old lady be a blasphemy? Would it work alltogether?

Please do let me know what you think. Thanks.

Philippe/

swan47/50

23 February 2009 - 15:53
#2
Join Date: 11 February 2009
Posts: 4

Hi Phillipe,
It'll work. Becoming more common to dispense with spinnaker poles in lieu of Bowsprits. A great combination is also a yankee with a staysail for cruising, not mich less footage than a no.1 genoa.
Phantom

23 February 2009 - 16:01
#3
Join Date: 03 March 2007
Posts: 240

Hi Philippe

Had the same discussion with myself a few years back. I have lots of experience with a regular spinnaker and know the work entailed and wondered about a code zero or a Gennaker. Having two small kids as crew I wanted something easier to handle. I discussed it with North sails and they discouraged me from getting a Code zero selling me on a Gennaker. I find I can carry it quite high ...circa 90 degrees or better but that is not as good as the regualr spinnaker after about 150 degrees off the wind. I have also heard you get a bigger penalty having one of these when racing. Faster maybe??? I have a stuffer on it and it is easy to handle so it gets used regularly. An even better bit of information.. You loose the so called S&S roll!!!! which my 40 and a number of others have fun with.

Cheers

Mike

Stormsvale




23 February 2009 - 16:47
#4
Join Date: 16 February 2007
Posts: 199

Thank You Phantom and Thank You Mike,

I actually have a sort of yankee that was with the boat when I purchased her 9 years ago. To be honest, I onlky used twice. AS to the Gennaker, well if North discourages the choice of the Code Zero, then I suppose that we all have to listen. They know what they talk about, do they not?

What about the bowsprit. Selden has one that comes with fittings that are bolted to the deck and that allows the bowsprit be removed when not in use.

Any other make or brands, perhaps better suited for the purpose? Or should I have one manufactured? After all it is only a tube that can be a nice, sturdy well polished stainless steel for example. If so, how long should it be: 80cm to 120cm?  

What do you say. Thanks a lot.

Cheers/Philippe

23 February 2009 - 19:47
#5
Join Date: 27 February 2007
Posts: 31

Another option you might consider is having your traditional Symmetrical spinnaker recut to be an Asymmetrical spinnaker and getting a sock to assist with hoisting/dousing the chute. This would be only a fraction of the cost of a new Gennaker/Asym spinnaker. This is really only an option if you plan on never flying the traditional spinnaker. Any sail loft can get you a quote on the recut, and they do these quite often these days.

I'm having the 1.5 oz spinnaker recut on our Swan 38 for this purpose. I think it will take a few hours of sail loft labor, and I will get the ATN Snuffer for a sock. I never fly a traditional spinnaker on our Swan as I am a short-handed cruising sailor. The recut won't be as "perfect" as a specific built Asymmetrical spinnaker, but should get the job done and allow a little more versatility to the sailing inventory. This is much better for me than the sail sitting in its sail bag up in the sail locker.

If I need to sail deeper, I plan on using 2 headsails on the twin grooved roller furling, with the shorter 100% jib poled out to windward and the 135% genoa on the other side. I hear this is an effective downwind technique, and also reduces rolling.

Good luck, and be sure to post some pics when you finally sail whatever you end up getting.

Regards,

Nathan (s/v Inspiration 38/090)

 

23 February 2009 - 21:23
#6
Join Date: 16 February 2007
Posts: 199

Nathan,

Thank you very much for a clear argument. I actually thought about the idea but I did not dare to think it through totally, of fear of "destroying" my spinnaker. Now I feel encouraged by your experience and I will investigate the idea further. However, may I ask, this newly recut chute in your case, do you fly it with a pole, directly on a block at the bow or on a bowsprit? Thanks

Cheers/Philippe

23 February 2009 - 21:58
#7
Join Date: 03 March 2007
Posts: 240

Just to follow up. The guys at North pushed me towards the Aysm based on the need to have a bow sprit and that that they are not as good downwind as a regular spinnaker or an asym. They said that the Code Zero was excellent but really designed for a limited wind angle where I would probably, given my short handed status not use it much preferring to stay with the new 145 % Genoa they were also building me and due to the extra effort to get it up on deck and the minor advantage with it.

If I had the bucks and crew and was racing I would probably have all three. Right now I am very happy with my asym 145 combo and as I am not racing except with a friend on another 40 I am happy with the setup I have. The asym is easy to fly and get down and as I went a bit over size....... good in light airs (:-)).
Best Advice I can give is to talk to your sailmaker being clear about what you want to do with the boat. They will give you the best advice. If you are not sure about what they suggest... you know where to ask.

Cheers
from Stormsvale

24 February 2009 - 01:59
#8
Join Date: 27 February 2007
Posts: 31

Just a quick follow up. Asymmetrical spinnaker will not require a pole (or any of the lines associated with the pole). Many folks will attach a block onto/near the bow roller for attaching the tack pennant of the Asym, floating it out and away from the bow platform to reduce chafe and possibly increase pefrormance. If you have a bowsprit, that would also work, but not necessary.  My sail will be recut in the next month into an Asym so and I'll post some pics of the final configuration for reference on the forum...

24 February 2009 - 08:15
#9
Join Date: 16 February 2007
Posts: 199

Many thanks to you Guys, Phantom, Mike and Nathan,

Your comments really helped. Now I seem to have two alternatives to discuss with my sailmaker. (1) to recut my spinnaker or (2) to have a new gennaker build. The issue of bowsprit or no bowsprit can be sorted out later.

I will let you know the details.

Cheers/Philippe

17 March 2009 - 16:58
#10
Join Date: 01 February 2007
Posts: 234

I crossed the Atlantic last November, unfortunately not on Swan. We used an asymetric most of the way across. We were able to use it at a wider angle than specified by the sail makers by seting the sail on the spinnacker pole, with ploe height just above the pulpit. We could pull it further aft.  Very easy sail to handle, even better with a snuffer.

Fair winds

       

09 April 2009 - 02:23
#11
Join Date: 27 February 2007
Posts: 31

Just an update. I got an estimate on recutting my traditional spinnakers to an asym. Sailmaker who gave me the quote stated that based on the current shape of my spinnakers, when recut as an assymmetrical, he thinks that they will only be useful in a rather narrow range of about 20 degrees or so. (can't remember exact apparent wind angles) This doesn't sound like not a very wide band, so I am holding off on doing the recut.

For now, I'm getting an ATN Snuffer/Sock for the traditional spinnaker, and I am going to practice flying it single handed and see if I have any success with that. For gybing, I will douse it and then rehoist on other side, but I plan on flying it over long (non gybing) cruising legs. The sailmaker said that this would be a good thing to start with, and since I already have all the gear for the spinnaker except the sock, I just have to buy the sock (which will be re-usable if I do ever decide to recut or buy a new asymmetrical).

Phillipe, I'd be interested in what your sailmaker says about recutting your spinnakers if you go down that path, and if you get a similar response from them.

-Nathan

 

18 May 2009 - 23:19
#12
Join Date: 27 February 2007
Posts: 31

Thought I would update my experiences with ATN Tacker and ATN Sock for flying Symmetrical spinnaker.

Instead of recutting my traditional (symmetrical) spinnaker as previously mentioned, I ended up buying a device from ATN called a Tacker. This allows flying a symmetrical spinnaker without a pole. It slides over the furled headsail and attaches to tack of spin sail. A tack line then attaches to this. It keeps the spinnakers forward edge (clew) close to the center line, and allows for adjusting up/down using the tack line. I was very pleased with the results.

From the manufacturer, they mentioned that this arrangement works best if the kites head is les than 90 degrees. (making it more of a reaching kite), which was the case in my situation.

Flew it with ease in 5-12 knots of wind and up to 70 degrees apparent, no pole and all the extra gear.

This has added a little extra versatility to our sail inventory, as this spinnaker was previously just sitting unused as I don't want to work the spinnaker pole and all that extra gear typically associated with symmetrical spinnakers.

For the dollar investment, this was a great way to get extra value out of older but still in good condition symmetrical sails. I'm now postponing my purchase of a new Asymmetrical sail for a few years.

Fair winds and happy sailing.

-Nathan (s/v Inspiraiton 38/090)

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