Beneteau vs. S&S Swan
My wife and I are fixin to retire in about 5 years, depending upon the economy, and are planning on moving into a sailboat. Just came back from a week in Antigua and we decided to shop around now. We have had 3 boats in the past (2 S-20's and a Cat-30) and would like to keep things simple (no main/boom furlers). I am looking at several Beneteau 36.7's as something to sail for 5 years then move up to a 44-46 foot cruiser when we quit work. There are some good deals on the west coast (we live in AZ) for S&S Swans; a rennovated 41 for $190k, a 1981 47 for $219K but an original deck, and a few 37's under $150K. My question is regarding the handling of an S&S Swan, the beneteau dealer says they have too many winches and are too difficult for 2 people to sail. Some people on a cruising forum say the evil handling is due to IOR design rules. We are not looking for a racing boat, we have never popped open a spinnaker, but for a quality boat that will not fall apart the first time we hit a decent wave. Anyone familiar with the boats for sale in San Diego? How hard is it to get a ride on a brokerage boat?

Dear Deluxe

I think it is not fair (for the Beneteau...) to compare a Sparkman & Stephens Swan and a Beneteau. In this part of the world (Mediterranean) is very difficult (do they self disintegrate about after their tenth birthday...?) to see Beneteau older than 8/12 year, and when you look at the very few you can see around, you see boats very "tired", in poor conditions, they look (all of them) nearly wreck.

I think very well built boats as the Sparkman & Stephens designed and engineered ones, and Swans in particular, are, become better and better as the time goes on.

I sail my Swan 38 just with my wife (and a small dog, which is not a great help) and I have sailed her for ten years, most of my friends are S&S Swan owners, and sail their boats in just two people.

Before buying a Beneteau I would suggest you (and your broker, if he's brave enough) sail her on a 40/45 knots of wind and rough sea, and then do the same on a Sparkman & Stephens boat, better if she's a Swan, than I think you (and the broker too) will get your definite answer.

Fair Wind

Matteo (38/067 Only You)

Hi Deluxe,
I fully agree with my friend Matteo that a contest Beneteau vs. S&S Swan is not fair. Would you ever compare a Fiat to a Rolls Royce?
I gladly reply to some of your questions.
"I would like to keep things simple (no main/boom furlers)"
Fine, I have never seen any S&S Swan with a main/boom furler because their classical reefing systems are perfectly functional and reliable.
"a renovated 41 for $190k, a 1981 47 for $219K but an original deck, and a few 37s under $150K."
They all sound within normal prices, but I strongly encourage to follow the judgment of a professional surveyor.
"the beneteau dealer says they have too many winches and are too difficult for 2 people to sail"
Well, I could write a paper on this but to be short I will say that
1) no, there are not too many winches,
2) no, they are not too difficult to sail for 2 people if you stay under, say, 40-41 feet LOA,
and
3) never listen to what a car dealer (in this case a boat dealer!) says about brands he does not sell.
Taking into account your needs and according to my own experience, I would recommend for you a 38, a 41 but not a 411.
"Some people on a cruising forum say the evil handling is due to IOR design rules. "
Sorry to say that but I think they do not know what they are talking about.
"We are ... looking for a quality boat that will not fall apart the first time we hit a decent wave."
This is the approach we all share in this forum: you are indeed looking for a S&S Swan and not for a beneteau-like boat. :-)

Daniel, Luna Menguante 411-004

Dear Delux,

Just few words to corroborate what have been said so well by Matteo and by Daniele. Let me just add this:

A S&S Swan is more like an object of art. Its design and designer is world renown and the reputation of its builder is beyound discussion. The sweet lines of these yachts are such that they never go out of fashion, thus they are agreable to the eyes and they radiate beauty and strength. Beneteau, Bavaria and so on are certainly nice in their way. they have nice cockpits with a lot od space for entertianment, but then again, a large cockpit is not something that the late Olin Stephens advocated for security reason, when sea get rough out there and want to enter your cockpit! Furthermore, you are not, I presume, buying a yacht in order to use it seating in your cockpit firmly tighted to te docks!

I say go for a S&S Swan. Reconfigure the deck gear to suit your need and enjoy a wonderfull sailing in strong air. Dare I suggest that the configuration of the 411 is slightly better than that of the 41? However, the 38 is a great classic. It could be your lucky number.

Good Luck and all the best with your decision.

Cheers/Philippe

47/050

Hi Delux

Good feed back from the others!!! I particularly suggest you listen to the longevity issues. The Swans we are talking about are over 30 years old and are still going strong.

Anyway, I have had my Swan 40 for 12 years and would not trade her. Better now than when I bought her. She is a great sea boat and can be double or single handed quite well with a few mods. I spent a fair bit of time mid Atlantic in her singlehanded. Got caught in a force 10 and had no major problems...OK rough but she never made me nervous. During the same storm in the same region a Beneteau 50 was lost with all hands.

To me there is no other choice for me or my family.

As for asking a broker. He will sell you on what he has and knows. Do you trust a used car dealer?

You are doing the right thing, ask sailors.

One last comment and nothing against Beneteaus. They make some great coastal race and cruise boats and people have logged lots of offshore miles in them.

But

Skoda or Mercedes.

Its your life.

Cheers
MIke

Storm Svale.

Lots of great info so far. I am looking to do one of two things; buy a newer (<5 yrs) small/cheap 35 footer now to putt around San Diego then San Fran and build up experience for the offshore boat (like a Swan) in 5 years OR buy an older offshore boat now and hope I do not go broke repairing it before I retire. The 41 footer in San Diego is a 411, why is that one not recommended vs the 41?

Hello Again Delux,

After this excellent feedback from the friends, the decision must be easier for you. perhaps you want to take a look at this excellnet Swan S&S 38 in Oriental, NC. She seems to be in excellent shape:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1975/Nautor-Swan-1797676/Oriental/NC/United-States

Cheers/Philippe

//Swan47/050

Hi,
I reply to the question regarding the 411 but I want to be very clear that it is my own very personal position - not even shared by my wife and my son!
We have a 411 and she is a great boat, beautiful and powerful in sailing close hauled: presently I would not trade her for anything else.
But... she is known as being the twin sister of the 41, only slightly over-canvassed and needing careful early reefing...
That´s all, just a thing to be considered sailing in two not-anymore-young persons.

Daniel, 411-004

Gasp...sputter!! Beneteau & S&S Swan mentioned in same breath! For God sakes, man, have you no decency?!

What evil handling?

I saw the renovated US Swan 41 for US$190K online and it looks wonderful. I would make a serious inquiry about that one. (I own a 41.)

Everything the Swan owners are telling you is jsutifiable biase.

Go for the Swan.

John 

Dear Deluxe,

Beneteau is not a ”bad” boat! Just not suitable for rough weather……and if you buy a Beneteau you will properly always look at every Swan you see with desire. If you buy a Swan, I am not sure that you will even think about a Beneteau.

Good luck

Carsten

Cygnus Peña 47 # 20

Dear Deluxe,

I have a 411 which is either sailed solo or with my wife. We are both in are late 50s.

I last week met a guy who was 74 years old sailing his Swan 38 on the OSTAR. He told me he had sailed 70,000 miles in her mostly solo.

Change the deck hard ware to suit the type of sailing you intend.  Think of it as a business decision, most older Swans are fully depreciated and if worked on will apreciate in value over time. The same will not apply for the Beneteau.

Never buy a yacht without at least a weekend sailing her. The brokers do not like this but insist on it.  

John B

Swan Avista

The $190K refitted Swan just sold, the dealer said Swan owners usually do not permit test sails unless we make an accepted offer and put some $ down. There is a 371 for $139 but the deck is tired and will need replacing soon.

Dear Deluxe,

371 is NOT a sparkman & Stephens designed Swan. She's a R. Holland, she 's quite different from a S&S, but she's still a Swan...

Fair wind

Matteo (38/067 Only You)

The broker's pronouncement that there are "too many winches" reminds me of Archduke Ferdinand's critique of one of Mozart's compositions: "there are too many notes," he said. To which Mozart replied, "precisely which notes would you have me remove, Sire?" 

pleiades ;)

Dear Deluxe68, as you can see by the numerous responses to your query, there are a lot of passionate owners of these marvelous yachts. I'll skip more superlatives and just tell you that when I considered buying my 47, there was a line up to tell me how impossible, ridiculous, and even damaging to my love for sailing taking on such a demanding yacht would be for me. Everyone but a couple of other female owners who said jump at the opportunity. I did, and may I tell you that it was the best decision I could have made. I've sailed Aorangi alone, but far prefer the safety of a pair (up to 6 can be fun). There a lot of winches, but only when it's maintenance time. Costs can be limited if you do a lot of work on your own. The stability and security in a good gale far outweigh anything that your other option would provide. But that is something that has to be lived to understand perhaps, and I assure you that most of us can attest to this fact. In any case, wish you the best of luck in your search and your final choice, and hoping to see you pop up again here as a proud S&S owner one day...Cheers Jayne Aorangi 47/047

I would echo what has been stated by others:  there is no comparison in build quality between a Swan and a Beneteau.  That is not to say that there are some very nice and fast Beneteaus.  Personally, I would suggest that the Oceanis series is not worth considering and that I would only consider a "First" series.  I have spent some time on a First 42 and I own a Swan 41.  The First 42 is newer and slightly faster overall than my S&S Swan.  However, there is no comparison in build quality, seakindliness or looks.  Despite the fact that my boat is older, I feel that it will likely be sailing longer and I would feel much more secure for any ocean crossing on the Swan.  They are built like tanks but are also fast.  Another factor to consider is that the Swan will hold its value much better than the Beneteau.  My wife and I sail our 41 very comfortably with just the two of us.  Unless cost is a major factor I would not seriously consider the Beneteau. 

My wife and I are fixin to retire in about 5 years, depending upon the economy, and are planning on moving into a sailboat. Just came back from a week in Antigua and we decided to shop around now. We have had 3 boats in the past (2 S-20's and a Cat-30) and would like to keep things simple (no main/boom furlers). I am looking at several Beneteau 36.7's as something to sail for 5 years then move up to a 44-46 foot cruiser when we quit work. There are some good deals on the west coast (we live in AZ) for S&S Swans; a rennovated 41 for $190k, a 1981 47 for $219K but an original deck, and a few 37's under $150K. My question is regarding the handling of an S&S Swan, the beneteau dealer says they have too many winches and are too difficult for 2 people to sail. Some people on a cruising forum say the evil handling is due to IOR design rules. We are not looking for a racing boat, we have never popped open a spinnaker, but for a quality boat that will not fall apart the first time we hit a decent wave. Anyone familiar with the boats for sale in San Diego? How hard is it to get a ride on a brokerage boat?

on the subject of Beneteau vs Stephens swans, I can simply add that I have just completed a 10 month cruise around the Atlantic on my swan 431 (Melody Blue) ...superb handling and sea keeping abilities all the way, incredible ability to make progress against strong winds...I have met many owners of modern production boats, those have a habit of losing their rudders and quite simply fall apart. They are also very unconfortable in a heas sea b/c of flat hulls. We are very lucky to be sailing on such a fine boat as a S and S swan !