What Sails?
HI all,

Well my Dacron Main and North Penlam 145% Genoa from my 40 are on their last legs. The main is from the last century...circa 1980( i.e. before me) and the Penlam is from 03. Some reflections on these sails. The Penlam has a great shape and holds it still but is cracking!! I took it for some work at my local sailmaker and his comment was you have really looked after it most of them don't last this long!! The Main on the other hand has been through the wars of Atlantic crossings and a spell in the Caribbean and looks it. I did a check on prices at the Hamburg boat show last year. There the sailmakers were pushing me to laminate sails..my recent experience with the Penlam is pushing me away. Yes, a wonderful sail for racing but longevity suffers.
I had a chat with Harald Baum of Pantaeniu about his experiences and he questioned the benefits of the laminate sails. Anyway, I have recently been taking with a US sailmaker from Pineapple sails in California. We have had some great email discussions and I am thinking about a high quality full batten dacron main. (http://challengesailcloth.com/high_modulus/9_3.pdf9 with some roach as well as a CAL (laminate) 125% Genoa with battens http://www.sailbattens.com/bat_ctflexible.htm#FLEXI This sail is said to have the same working lifetime as Dacron Genoa (i.e. shape being the dacron killer). The sails are made in China http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20071011/?pg=159#pg159 This seems to be the trend.

Anyway, I may be doing some racing( fun stuff mainly) as well as ARC in 11. Anyone want to comment on their experiences with Laminates and Genoas with Battens before I make my final decision??

Thanks in advance

Mike

Storm Svale.

And a picture of Storm Svale resting

Hi Mike, I have Can-Can IV (40/29) which also has a tall rig and are now about 95% through a restoration. We have basically replaced everything above the deck inculding sails which we purchased from Sander Sails here in Lymington in the UK about 2 years ago and have been very pleased with them.  We bought Performance cruising sails made with Hood Vektron which is lighter and stronger than Dacron, with a fully batterned main using a Tidesmarine Strong track originaly to fit the original mast and a furling Genoa using Harken gear. The mast was also replaced and was made by Selden. The spec as follows:-

1)  SAIL:  MAINSAIL

a)  Hood 7.7oz Vektron

b)  Slide luff

c)  Sail number

d)  Fibreglass battens

e)  Tell tales

f)   Sailbag

g)   3 Rows of slab reefs

h) Loose Foot

I)  Fully battened option using a ‘strong’ system including 5 battens cars, 6 intermediate and a headboard slide

3)  SAIL:  ROLLER REEFING GENOA

a)  Hood 7.7oz Vektron

b)  Luff tape to suit reefing system

c)  Foot markers

d)  Tell tales

e)  Sail bag

f)  Sunstrip 

g)  Foam luff padding  

With the exchange rate as it is you may want to get a quote, if you do Sanders sails are at

Dear Mike

I had a kevlar main and 135% genoa, they were great as they have been delivered, but lasted not for a long time, I sail about 40 days during summer holydays and about 30 week ends per year.

A few months ago I ordered a new sail wardrobe, and it has been designed by a specialist, who before starting the production came onboard three or four times to take measurments and wanted even to sail the boat to try and understand her behaving....! No comment, I have never seen before such a professionist in this field, he wrote pages and pages of notes, measured the tracks, every position of the tracks, etc. Etc.. Anyway, to make a long story short, he suggested for my boat, with a relatively short "E" a dacron main, a dacron 100% and a soft norlam 135% (we decided to have the sails produced at North Sails). We tested the new sails a few weeks ago, and are going to have a serious trial week in a fortnight, when we'll be a the Swan Cup.

I could let you know exact details at the end of thie month, and if you want the name and address of the guy, please just let me know.

Fair winds!

matteo (38/067 Only You)

Dear Mike,

I have a tall rig 38. I sail about the same amount of time as Matteo. In 1997 I had a dacron mainsail made by North. North advised dacron, because of the high aspect ratio of the mainsail (no need for laminate). The sail was perfect and lasted until last year. Thus I have bought a new mainsail with the exact same specs and North.  In 2000 I bought a soft norlam 135% genoa. It was and still is perfect. Never been repaired and holding its shape. Only small mildew spots in the laminate. It has a rope luff for reefing. I don't change headsails (except for the occasional clubrace) and therefore reef the genoa quite a lot. No problem. Very pleased with it. When I need a new genoa I will go with the same specs and with North

best regards,

Jan Kooistra

YULUNGA 38/110

Hi Jason,

She looks nice.!!! I like the looks of the rig!! The guy in the US is talking about the top 3 battens being full length. Did you discuss this with your sailmaker? Did he mention headsail battens? I saw this on some racers here this past weekend. Anyway, the Dacron cloth the guy in the US is talking about is heavy but is tight weave and low stretch which should mean it holds its shape longer. I will give your sailmaker a call and see what he comes up with. The dollar is low and the guy in the US because he does not advertise... all word of mouth has come up with a great price. Transport is the issue!

Thanks for your comments

Cheers
Mike

Hi Matteo,

How many years did you get out of the laminates? You must see a lot more sunshine than we do up here so the UV would probably be worse.... My North Penlam split at a fold while in storage. Not as sailing issue but a UV issue. When not sailing but on the roller it is covered by a sock which I assumed would be better than the suncover and is supposed to mean you get a more efficient sail. I am rather jealous about the amount of time you get on the water... we usually get about a month vacation then a couple of weekends before we put her to bed for the winter.
As for measurements. The guy in the US has a form to fill out which covers everything. I am amazed about the detail. As we are discussing battens in the Genoa another issue is sheeting angles and potentially a new track so we can sheet in a bit more on the genny. I am impressed with this guy as well!!
Interesting that your sailmaker suggested Dacron for the main and the jib. Did he say why? As for buying from your guy.. North seems to try to keep people buying from national suppliers... the last time I bought a sail there was a major discussion as to who I had to buy it from. I sourced prices form Canada, Denmark and Germany that time. No shopping around, had to buy in Germany.
Anyway I look forward to hear about your experiences with the new sails!! Good luck I hope they are fffasssttt.

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!


Mike

Hi Jan,

Yes, North makes a great product. I have purchased a number of North Sails and have been happy with them. I was and still am happy with my North Asym and the Penlam. Just wish the Penlam had lasted longer. It will be one of my downwind ARC sails until it splits. The guy from Pineapple Sails wanted me to go Laminate (CAL) for the Main but I think given my sailing future I want a Dacron as they are easier to repair and even if they stretch a bit you can still sail with them. To be honest in comparing North and Pineapple I find much more discussion about sails with Pineapple and new ideas about sails. This I find stimulating. The idea of going to a battened Genoa for my roller furling system is cutting edge and should increase the performance of the sail both in longevity as well as pointing and speed. Another thing I learned as that so many sail makers are now outsourcing their sails to that loft in China... Quantum, Doyle...and others. What you are paying for is the name and maybe some design features.. thread system, tape drive which seem very similar. What is interesting is the price difference between shall we call them sail designs as they don't make the sails anymore. Even North has its plant somewhere in SE Asia. i am not sure if that plant only makes North Sails.
Thanks for your comments!!!

Cheers
MIke

Dear Mike,

North Sails Europe (HQ in Denmark) has offices and lofts in many European countries, and as far as I know, if you are based in EU you can buy sails where you prefere (in Europe), anyway the guy I am talking about is not a North Sails employe, he's "just" a sail designer (and a very very good one), you can ask his professional task then you can buy sails wherever you prefer, even from other sailmakers. He's been working with North Sails for many years so it's easier for him if your choice is NS. He's been designing sails for two America's Cup campaigns (Italian).

Anyway, here you are, attached is the (his words) explanation you asked for:

Mainsail Cloth choice.

To build a good performance Dacron Mainsail, the key is to use the correct material for any Yacht rig proportions. The goal is always to achieve enough lower-Leech tension to control the upper Leech twist, in order to tune the side forces according to the wind strenght, but keeping enough forward driving force, good for speed.

A Low-aspect rig has a relatively long Boom. The sheet tension required to control the upper Leech twist is minor. The principal load path, starting from the Clew corner is travelling more inside the sail aiming to a point at about 3/4 of the Luff, to turn vertical towards the Head.

A shorter Boom, Higher Aspect sail has the principal loads running much closer to the Leech. In addition, the Sheet tension required to colse correctly the Leech is much greater. This is adding alot of strain to the lower Leech in particular.

There are families of Laminated sail cloth, where the inherent fiber modulus can guarantee a very small elongation. Being oriented along the cloth length (Warp), these are suitable for Radial panel layout construction. Kevlar, Dyneema or Carbon fibre are used in different cases. Polyester warp oriented woven cloth can not achieve enough strenght, as required for an High Aspect mainsail.

Different kind of Dacron woven cloth are available for traditional Cross Cut layout. Apart from being quite alot cheaper, they feature a bigger Fill yarn (across the roll) that can delivery the required strenght. If the sail is assembled with strong enough seams between all the Cross Cut panels, the result is a stronger Leech sail, compared with a Radial cut Polyester Mainsail.

Typically, a High Aspect Mainsail is associated with a very Low Aspect Genoa, because most IOR sailplans have quite a long Fore Traingle base "J". In this case all genoas can be built Triradial, using either Polyester woven or laminated, also depending by the "taste" of the Yacht.

Fair winds!

Matteo (38/067 Only You)

Hi Matteo

NIce picture. These are beautiful boats!!! Anyway, I am learning a lot about sails. Wish your designer was here!!

The plan is for a C cut main with high density Dacron and a tri-radial 125% laminate CAL with the new batten material. This should allow more roach in the Genoa thus helping the trimming of the upper part of the leech among other things.


Quote from Ullman Sails' Custom Axis Laminate Sails or referred to as CAL sails are continuing to gain popularity due to incredible shape holding and durability. The value of these sails is becoming legendary. Priced just slightly more than a Dacron sail, sailors get the low stretch and high strength of a Vectran cruising laminate. Although a cruising option and mostly on larger boats because of the weight some have decided to use them for racing with great success.

CAL Sails are built with 100% U.V. blocking film laminated inside to protect the Vectran yarns to guarantee the long life of the sail. The multiple thread line load path of the Vectran yarns capture all the loads of the sail to keep the sail smooth and the designed shape of the sail over a wider range of wind conditions. This translates to less heeling of the boat and less weather helm. It also reduces the need to reef making sailing safer and easier by keeping your family off of the deck when the wind is high.


North, all quotes go back the head office. if you request multiple quotes from different loft they decide who has the right to sell to you. It ends up with the local loft. In my case it is a bit confusing... the boat is Canadian, I live in Germany, the family lives in Denmark and the boat is in Denmark... as a result I requested multiple quotes and they decided who could sell to me... shopping around was a waste of time. I can understand it as they are protecting their international network. Otherwise cost conscious buyers would be going to the loft with the lowest price and result in internal competition.


All the best

Mike

Hi Mike,

We replaced recently our sails on our Swan 38 Jacaranda (38/059) with a 150% Genua, Jib 1 and Mainsail.

We discussed the order with a number of European Sail Producers and ended up at Hood Sails in UK infor@hoodsailmakersuk.com.

All sails are produced in Hood Vectron 7.7M. Main with 5 full lenth batterns (fiberglass), batterncars, 2 rows of reef, Teflon reinforcement at areas of potential chafe and leech line at reef points. Headsails for rolling (Selden rolling system).

The quality of work is superp and after sailing around in Scandinavia this summer with the new sails we can only recommend HOODs in UK. Pricewise thet are competitive with other top sail makers in Europe.

Good luck

Jorgen Kristensen "Jacaranda 38/59"

Hi Jorgen

The Hood Vectron cloth has a great rep. I just asked for a quote using it!!

Thanks for your input!!

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike, for what is worth, let me tell you what I replaced my original sails with. My new main is made out of 9.8oz dacron with 2 full battens on the top and 2 3/4 battens at the bottom. Three reefing points with nylon webbing handles above each reefing point to aid pulling the sail down, also loose footed and a draft stripe. I accepted the sail maker's recommendation to go with the 9.8oz, since the sail was designed for true blue water crossing. The genoa is a 140 with luff tape and 2 reefing points with markers. Sumbrela Sun protection and tell tales. For my sails I was in contact Peter Grimm from Super Sailmakers, 4710 NW 15th Ave Fort Lauderdale, FL 33309, Phone(954) 763-6621, a very active and knowledgeable racer and sail maker. Now,I have not done much blue water sailing lately, and the cloth weight on the main is a handful, I suppose it will shine in the middle of the ocean when things turn for the worse.
Cheers, Rodrigo

More bits and pieces about my sails, the genoa is made out oz 8oz dacron, there is foam at the luff for the reefing. I intentionally asked for it not to be a deck sweeper since I wanted it to be raised from the deck so it could allow the water from a breaking wave to be spilled from the deck as soon as possible. This is from previous experiences during blue water sailing, where a wave would brake against the forward windward quarter and my old deck sweeping genoa would keep all this water on deck until it was slowly drained aft.

Thanks Rodrigo,

She looks NICE!!!! anyway thanks for the info. The main will be 8.8 oz Dacron with two full battens and 2 3/4 battens like yours! Just a lighter cloth. As for the Genoa.. I lost a number 2 deck sweeper a few years back. Took a wave into the bottom of the sail. Bang... Learning from that lesson I have and will avoid deck sweeping genoas. I will let you know how the CAL battened genoa works out. I have not received any comments on this approach but have decided to give it a try...

All the best
Mike from Stormsvale