your opinion on 411
Hello, I just would like to know some of your opinion about 411.
I'd appreciate some owner opinion or some opinion of somebody who had the chanse
to know the 411 deeply well.
Thank you

Hello, I just would like to know some of your opinion about 411. I'd appreciate some owner opinion or some opinion of somebody who had the chanse to know the 411 deeply well. Thank you

Hi!

We purchased our 411 035 Veranita 17 years ago in England and sailed her back to Norway during Easter time 1990. We have cruised her to the Mediteranean, and are racing her regularely (mostly oceanracing in the Skagerak), in the last 3 years shorthandracing. As all old Swans the 411 is tremendously strongly built and Veranita is still original in almost all aspects (new propeller in 2003, and new propellershaft and stuffingbox will be fitted this year). The 411 have a rather tall rig and is very fast upwind especially from 8m/sec and upwords. Downwind she sails faster than most in winds less than 5m/sec due to the rather large spinaker (173m2). In adition the 411 is a very handsome yacht. If you have questions please do not hesitate to ask, and I will try to answer.

?yvind Songe-M?ller

Hello,

Some years ago, I was interested in a 411. After having long discussions with an old and very knowledgeable person from Nautor Swan, I opted for another modell, namely the 47. Briefly, the 411 is simply a modified version of the 41. It has a slightly longer hull and the rudder has been placed a little aft. The earlier models have turned out to be quite unstabel. Nautor decided to give them a little stability by giving the a deeper and slightly heavier keel. This was done from hull nr 20 or so. The exact number of the hull being affected by the change can be given to you by Nautor. Personally, I think that the 411 have something of a "misproportion" about them in their line. I'll go for the 38 or the 44 or perhaps even the 47!

Cheers/Philippe

I have owned a 411 for 6 years and I am very happy with her. I agree with most of the things that were written in the previous answers. The 411 is a modified version of the 41, with a taller mast, double spreaders and the rudder moved aft; everything else is pretty the same. Mine is indeed one of the few ones without the deeper/heavier keel modification and I plan to do it soon: she is NOT unstable, she is just slightly soft i.e. she lists at strong winds more than one would like and tends to go to the wind. This is not called instability.
She was designed as a racer/cruiser and she is really so: racer first, cruiser second. If you are more interested in a cruiser/racer, the 41 is a better choice. Besides this, all S&S Swans are a very safe choice and you will never make a mistake choosing anyone of them. On the other hand, the choice of the size is very personal and related to many individual variables. Of course sometimes I am, too, daydreaming of selling my 411 and buying a 47 but then... there are lots of pluses and minuses, believe me. My advice is: think of what you need and can afford in size and then buy the nearest approximation of a S&S Swan!

Good luck
Daniel (411-004 Luna Menguante)

Thank you for your precious hints, of course I'd prefer to own a 47, I find her just perfect, but sometimes you have to relate with badgets, mantainance and so on.
Still I dont understand what is the difference between cruiser and racer. Cruiser has to do with "comfort", racer has o do with speed!! I think that a boat has to be comfortable (to make the crew navigate safetly and good phisic and mental condiction) and as speed as she can go according with hull design and so on. If I'd look for speed I just have to turn to new racer boats as many yards are proposing in these few years.
The reason why I am looking for a S&S boat is because I belive I'll find these charatteristics. I.e. today you'll never find boats which have half of their weigth under the water.
Now it can be only the choise in what is worth to buy: a 411 rather then 431
a 41 rather than a 43. That is why I'm asking people who know S&S much better than I do.
A "big" thank you to you all

Maybe I did not explain myself completely. All (and I mean ALL) the S&S Swans are very well designed and comfortable for the crew. In fact, even if sometimes for their length they may miss a second wc or some additional space, they are so well arranged that no one with some knowledge will complain. Moreover they are all very strongly built and safe boats.
Having stated this, a racer is a boat where the ratio sail area/displacement is rather large with respect to the one of a cruiser. This means that on a racer you may be able to go faster but, sometimes, you may be compelled to reduce canvas more promptly.
That is all!

Daniel

Dear All,
keel on 411' has been modified by a joint decision of Nautor and owner of hull # 009 (Oracabessa), Ing. Ammannato. The boat is now Stefano's, and you could ask him (i.e send him a personal messagt from this forum) for all details, copy of the correspondence between Nautor and Ing. Ammannato etc.
By the way, I couldn't agree more with Daniele, ALL S&S Swans are special and extremely strong built boats, believe us! Than, if you want to buy a racer or a cruiser, a more comfortable or performing boat, that's a very personal taste
Fair winds!

Matteo

Sorry, I did mean to argue with danielefua. I just wanted to explain my point of view which I belive is a low level one. Actually I dont onw a S&S swan but I'm looking around to buy one. I thought to joint this forum to have some good hint from owners.
By the way I'd really appreciate if orcabessa owner would give some info about 411
which I consider a very very good boat. Anybody who think to give more suggestions is welcome.
Thank you again

Federic, everything is ok, you did not argue with me!! You are very welcome to join this forum and discuss about such beautiful boats. We all are slightly biased, as you may understand, but we enjoy also explaining what we think. In fact I understand that you appreciate already the S&S Swans for the same reasons that we do, so I hope you will soon own one.
I will gladly reply to more specific questions whenever you want.
Cheers
Daniel

hi, I'm stefano and with my wife we are the lucky owner of oracabessa. 7 years ago , we had another boat a s&s 34, a beautiful boat, very very fast but really wet . Since 6 years , we sail with oracabessa very well and we are really happy. Our boat had the keel deeper (231cm) because the former owner decided with Rod Stephens to get the boat with more enhanced upwind carachteristic. In fact , at that time Ing. Ammannato won a lot of regattas. Anyway, I think that two persons (husband and wife not very good sailors), can cruise really safely in any weather conditions. I refitted oracabessa completely, and we are really happy. i think that for 2/4 persons its a fantastic boat for cruise, to race you need 10 . So if you really like her, it is a good choise.
If I can help you in any way, I'll be very glad, and please write to my mail

during rendez vous 2003

25 kn

Thank you Stefano for your words. Your boat is simply gorgeous (as well as Daniele's).
It thrills me quite a lot to own a 411 and I'm looking around. To be sincere, I'm flirting with a 411 which is laying very very far away from where I leave. So, I'd like to ask you (all) something which I'd like that you'd answer using your heart and with your mind together.
What you would be ready to pay for a 411 (long keel one)? In others words, what is worth to pay for her, considering a fair mix of emotion/market?
I'm asking this because I'm fighting with myself whether jump in this foolish act (I mean going so far away to buy a boat), or not. Of course this question envolves any body who feels to give me an answer. Hope not to bother anybody!!

Am I allowed to answer to this question, even if my boat is a humble 38? The value is really a personal matter, what could be very important to me could not be for someone else, in a few words, if you fell in love with this boat, and I think you did as I understand you are prepared to travel a lot and getting some trouble to get her home, simply go and buy her! In my opinion to buy a boat is as buying a work of art, you shouldn't do it with your brain, but with your hearth...
Fair winds, and hope you to join our big owner family very soon
Matteo (38/067)

I will tell you my experience. In 2001, when I decided to change boat, I found the S&S 411 far according to my standards as a sailor: in Atlantic Spain (La Coruna) while I live in Italy and never sailed before farther than Greece and Tunisia. The price was very good according to the other 411 on sale at the time: 110 thousand Euros. I had the boat inspected by a local (almost independent) surveyor who, I am afraid, was not as accurate as I hoped and who made an extremely positive report. Based on his judgment I deposited a down-payment (10%) to stop other buyers and I flew to LaCoruna to inspect the boat myself. My visit was disappointing because I realized how poorly made was the surveyor's report. In particular, as it was, the boat had no really bad structural problem but was not fit at all for sailing a long journey back to Italy. Just to mention few things: none (I mean NO-ONE: speed, vhf, radar, autopilot...) of the electronics instruments was functioning, no electric windlass, all rotten halliards, very old sails, bad emergency raft, etc etc. All signs of a boat merely used for sailing within the harbor boundaries. Moreover there were clear signs of a starting osmosis to be treated soon. I add that all above things were declared in the sale document as either "in storage" or "functioning". Some of them were indeed in storage but were just a piece of junk.
To make it short: with some difficulty I obtained a discount that took into account the osmosis treatment (it was the only point on which I could legally recede from the signed contract), I completed the purchase and bought all the necessary things to make the boat ocean-fit. With the exception of the mounting of the radar antenna, I did all the work and repairing myself with the help of my family and good friends. It took 10 days of hard full time work and several thousand euros (close to 10) but at the end we made it: I judged that the boat was not in perfect conditions for my standards but at least fit to sail and we left. In the following years I had to spend several times the first amount paid (I mean the 10k) to change sails, overhaul the mast and the standing rigging, renew the fridge, the upholstery, etc etc and I have still pending the complete restoration of the teak deck, the engine overhaul and the osmosis issue. Regarding the last point, presently it is not an urgent issue because the boat spends 11 months ashore every year.
Anyway although it may sound strange, I am still very happy of my purchase and I believe I made a good deal. I know that every penny I spent in my previous boat was thrown in the wind; this is not the case with an S&S Swan.
Just another very important point for you to consider in your purchase: the 411 I bought was not in very good conditions but had NEVER been changed in her structure and design. The original setup of all (and I mean all!) the things was still there as designed by Sparkman & Stevens in person; even the most tiny trivial things. My last advice before closing: beware of deeply modified units without the direct approval of Nautor's. They may hide a lot of bad surprises difficult and expensive to be adjusted. And ALWAYS find a trusted surveyor if you must rely his word and not your own eyes! :-)

Regards and good luck
Daniel

Thank you all for your hints. By the way mine is very far away much more than Daniel's!
Anyway, of course I'll make her survayed, for instance I want to ask you something: will a ultrasound check be reilable to discover delamination? A friend of mine did it on his boat because he had bad experiece crashing reef a couple of years ago. He told me this check it is very reilable.
I looked planty of photos about the boat and she looks ok. But I belive that she may need a lot of work (teak included) to have her in good shape, just I hope that the structure will be ok.
Thank you again

Yes, ultrasound screening is a very good test for delamination because it reveals pockets of air or water inside the fiberglass bulk. I am curious to know where is the boat and how far from where you live.
Regards
Daniel

Hello Frederic,

Well, I would say as other have said in this page: follow your heart. It is indeed a piece of work that you are acquiring. When you see the boat, you will know. If the feeling is good, go for it. Perhaps are you looking at the 411 in Seatle for about ?100.000? You can see her on www.yachtworld.com. If such is the case, go for it. She looks very nice. You will have to arrange for transportation and for the Eurpean VAT. For the transportation www.dockwise.com is a possible alternative. It costs a little, perhaps ?10.000, but you save a lot of time and energy. Sailing her around costs also.

Speaking about following the heart. I bought my 47 in the year 2000 in Sardinia. I had a 37 before that. I arrived at Port cervo where she was at 9 o'clock in the morning. I met the former owner, a charming person from Austria, eighty years old. I looked at the boat, I talked to her owner, the feelings were very good. I signed the contract at 10.30: one hour and a half after I arrived. No survey was done, nothing. Just my own knowledge of boats, my feelings about her and about her former owner and, of course, my heart.  It was the best buy I have ever made (this was my 7th boat). The boat turned out to be in excellent shape throughout and as sound as a new one. I am talking about things that matter, such as structure, rigging, rudder, keel and keel holdings etc. Things like electronics, sails, halyards and so on are always bound to be renewed sooner or later. This been said, I am not advising agaist the syvey, I am simply sharing my own experience with you.

So, good luck with your quest: look at the boat, talk to the owner and you will know.

Cheers/Philippe 

Hi daniel and philippe, I think I have to give an answer to Daniel which confirmed me that ultrasound is a reliable survey. Do you think Seattle is far enough to make one feel as following a crazy idea? Philippe, would you go that far to get a boat? There are 2/3 in Europe: France, UK, Italy as well. The one in Seattle looks good (at least by photos) ,
the one in Italy has the gelcoat replaced! I heard that this kind of work can provoke problems sometimes, awlgrip seems to be better (?). I know also about a 47 which is on sale for 250,000 euro, should be 1975 or 1974, I went to see her and (as all 47) she's beautiful but too expensive for me. I have to think about. Anyway, you are all giving me a very good help. Till next...