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S&S Swan General - Powered Halyard Winch 411
29 December 2010 - 00:39
#1
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cla7003
Join Date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 252

Powered Halyard Winch 411
Hi -

Has anyone modified their 411 to have a powered halyard winch? If so, could you please describe your approach, what winch you selected, where it was placed, and how you got the power to it? Any feedback would be appreciated...

Thanks

Geoff
Corazon Swan 411 #41
30 December 2010 - 08:05
#2
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the professor
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Geoff

A powered winch has a motor below. If installed near the mast either a recess in the deck is required for the motor (likely to show on the inside), or the winch could be put on a pod high enough.

There is also another approach - install powered sheet winches in the cockpit, and lead the halyard temporarily there when help with the hoisting is required.

Jib halyards are nowadays often hooked up to hydraulic rams on the mast, the tension can then be adjusted from the cockpit panel.

Kind regards

Lars
30 December 2010 - 15:47
#3
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CLA7003
Join Date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 252

Geoff

A powered winch has a motor below. If installed near the mast either a recess in the deck is required for the motor (likely to show on the inside), or the winch could be put on a pod high enough.

There is also another approach - install powered sheet winches in the cockpit, and lead the halyard temporarily there when help with the hoisting is required.

Jib halyards are nowadays often hooked up to hydraulic rams on the mast, the tension can then be adjusted from the cockpit panel.

Kind regards

Lars

Lars:

The Corazon has had many of her original winches removed. I see on the photo of a sistership below that there are a couple of small winches port and stbd, just aft of the dorade boxes. I could re-install a powered winch in one of those spots, which would get the job done. Andersen has a very nice compact package - so my thought was to use that winch but I have no experience with them and wonder if anyone on the forum might. With my post I was hoping to get someone who had implemented this modification to see what they did and how it worked out, because there are a few ways at least to get this done, with trade-offs as in any design decision. The main decision is do I install a hydraulic power pack and go hydraulic, which would cost more now but add flexibility later, or just do this one electrically and let it ride. Can you tell me if the small winches I indicate are standard for the boat, what size they would have been, and what the intended use was for them? And - do you have any feedback on the Andersen winch?

Thanks very much as always,

Geoff
Corazon Swan 411 #41
31 December 2010 - 11:49
#4
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the professor
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Geoff

The small winches you mention are intended for the spinnaker pole fore guy/topping lift, but they are not strong enough for the halyard loads.

Approximate halyard loads can be found with the simple formula (LOA [ft])^2, in your case this works out to about 1700 lbs.

Winch manufacturers seldom disclose how much the powered winches can pull, but winch selection guides give guidelines, it appears that 44 or 46 would be a suitable size here. This number is the power ratio - i.e. how many times the winch increases the load put on the handle. Note that this is without friction.

A hydraulic power pack would hardly be motivated for one function only. If you plan to add more functions later this is likely to affect the size of the power pack, and needs to be considered.

Suggest owners are better suited to comment on certain products, would however like to point out that Harken has a powered winch with Rewind feature, meaning that the halyard also can be released from a distance.

Happy New Year!

Lars
31 December 2010 - 16:39
#5
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jayne
Join Date: 05 February 2007
Posts: 102

Dear Geoff,
a couple of things to perhaps consider when thinking of installing electric winches for a main halyard or any other application. we have two electrics (65 Antals an Italian Mfg) for sheets, and as Lars mentions we use them for other maneuvers as well. but there are pros and cons...
1) while they are more than efficient, their use is prohibited on board Aorangi for the three maneuvers that follow due to their enormous power potential without appropriate safety cutoffs for relative loads (the load that would be needed to set off the breakers is far beyond the list below as unfortunately tested personally.)
a) raising a man to masthead on fast speed or without a 2nd line
b) halyards
c) furling.
they will literally pull until things break or let loose with obvious consequences. (furling with disastrous results by a guest on board made this first choice a must) loose bolt on a mast track can cause major issues when hoisting the main, or a man going up that has a leg blocked, or the actual button blocks as you are hoisting him (both really happened but the last was quite scary!) (we resolved this by putting a safety breaker in the cockpit to provide emergency cutoff after this last incident, and have luckily always used a second safety line)
2) 12V consumption. since we use engine power only when absolutely necessary, it's a must to remember that these winches consume an enormous amount of power, and on a long haul with changing conditions this can make a real difference on battery drain.

actually, would be interested in solutions from other owners if the breaker issue has been resolved and how...

for hauling in the sheets we find their use a real relief, and if we can find a secure solution for the halyard, it would certainly help in single handed sailing.

in the end wouldn't give them up, as they are a real pleasure to have around for both racing and cruising. but I'm lucky to have found them on board...
look forward to hearing what you decide, and if there are solutions out there for our safety issues noted here on Aorangi.

a Very Happy New Year to you and everyone on the forum, and hoping to meet all in 2011!
Jayne
Aorangi 47/047
01 January 2011 - 09:45
#6
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the professor
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Happy New Year Jayne!

Thank you for pointing out an extremely important aspect with powered winches, and with all powered functions for that sake.

Unfortunately they will increase the risk of damage or injury, because they are set to pull to a high maximum load, and do not stop before that unless the power is cut off in time.

When you crank by hand you can feel when it is getting heavy, but a finger on a control button has no such feeling. And, pls note, buttons may malfunction, and not switch off, as Jayne rightly points out.

A proper installation should include the following:

- One or several Crash Stop buttons for the powered functions. Such a button is a red protruding mushroom shape, and hitting it switches everything off. After that the button can be re-set. At least one button within the reach of the helmsman is recommended, more is better, and everybody on board should be instructed about their use.

- One or several circuit breakers for the powered functions, and a routine to keep them switched off except when needed.

- The control buttons protected so they can not be activated unintentionally, for example by stepping on them, or by waves coming on deck. Folding covers are often used. There have been cases with hot sunshine activating buttons of pneumatic type.

- The control button should preferably be close to the winch. For example an anchor windlass controlled from the cockpit may cause danger.

- The winch motor must be disabled when a winch handle is inserted

There are possibilities to limit the pulling force based on the current drawn by the motor, but this may become complicated as you sometimes need the full load, and at other times much less.

If the winch has several speeds, disabling the slower speeds reduces the maximum pull, but retains the highest speed.

Best regards

Lars
02 January 2011 - 22:36
#7
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CLA7003
Join Date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 252

Lars:

I am surprised as an engineer that the makers of these winches have not come up with a load limiting control. I would think on a halyard winch a current limiting pot should allow the winch man to just put enough power on to raise the sail. Theoretically the current would need to be gradually increased as the sail comes up (more weight), and by just staying on top of that load, any problem load should be evident and almost something you could feel. This would then allow the control to be quickly 'spun down'. Of course, it would be even better if the winch came with an output torque vs input current graph, measured at the factory, and then the boat owner would know where to cut it off no matter what (to prevent breaking the pin in the halyard sheave with some factor of safety. Just seems like this is a 'must' for a device like this....so we're talking a dial control for current limiting, with a max current cut off, adjustable at installation.....what do you think?

Geoff
Corazon Swan 411 #41
03 January 2011 - 15:34
#8
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jayne
Join Date: 05 February 2007
Posts: 102

Dear Geoff,
As is obvious, I am certainly not an engineer, but I do spend a whole lot of time sailing under extremely varied conditions, and therefore would be thrilled if you were to apply your skills to finding a halyard hoisting solution for electric winches!

I would however be curious as to how this could be applied to such a variety of weights and measures as found on some of our treasures. Hoisting a 98%in carbon, and a 160%in heavy "Contender" spectra presents a whole different set of load factors. But this too is probably just an interesting challenge for an engineer (at least hope so). I can assure you that the first person in line if we can use our electrics for halyards and in safety will be Aorangi's crew!
Good luck, and do keep this thread up to date on your solutions if you can.

All the best.
Jayne
Aorangi 47/047
03 January 2011 - 21:06
#9
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the professor
Join Date: 02 January 2008
Posts: 1547

Geoff

Lewmar have something they call EVC meaning Electric Variable Control, which is a speed controller.

They also have a Soft Start function to avoid the jerks on start up of the motor.

It appears, however, that the speed control does not affect the cut out system for overload, which is set according to the winch SWL.

Best regards

Lars

 

 

 
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