New sails for a 41
I have to replace my main and furling genoa on Jaka (Swan 41, hull number 41). She is a tall rig version and the current sails are by North Sails. We do not race and typically cruise with just two on board. North Sails have asked us to consider their marathon radials in either NorDac Radian, Norlam, or Dyneema sailcloth. They also propose fitting a Ronstan Ballslide Series 6 batten car system for the mainsail. I would welcome any comments on these proposals (in particular the use of woven or laminated sailcloth).
Thanks. Rob Ellis

Rob, we have tried many routes with our 3 Swans over the years. I would probably avoid laminates for cruising although they will hold a better shape but instead go for good quality white sails. On Matteo's recommendation we went to Guido Cavalazzi who designs for North and had made some good quality "white" sails this year which I am pleased with and would expect them to have a 10 year life. In the UK we have had similar ones by Parker and Kay and Shore sails. We also have laminate sails including North 3DL's and UK carbon tape drives for Black Tie but they aren't very durable. Gavin

Hi Rob<> I went through an interal debate about sails this year as we are getting ready for some distance sailing. This ended up in me doing a lot of research on the issue. First bit of info, almost all lofts are having their sails bullt i n China or Malasia including North. They take the measurements and send them to the loft were they are built to the specs of North Etc. <> <> Dacron: The workhorse. I chose to get a heavy dacron main with two full battens. Why. Dacron stretches as we all know but is repairable. As you generally only carry one main I wanted one that would last (okstretch) and not break down the way a laminate can once it gets out of its wind range... and a main does get used in almost all winds. Anyway, I got the best quaility dacron on the market..heaviest cloth tightest weave as well as heavy duty stitching. For the full battens the loft had cars which fit our main track perfectly at a very low cost... no modification needed. I am very happy with way they work no jamming.... <> Head sail laminate: love the way they hold their shape until they don't. They don't last that long. I have two laminates now a 125 (1 season)and a 145 (8 seasons..which when I took the 145 in for some repair I shocked the sailmaker... they never last this long you must really look after it). Anyway, the repair was needed as it had cracked while in winter storage. I am hoping it will be usable next season but not counting on it. Why laminates as head sails... one usally has a couple of head sails so if one goes you can put another up. . <> Sailmaker. Choose one who you can talk to and explain the differences, strengths and weaknesses of the different materials cuts etc. After all the discussions with different lofts I ended up with a little loft in California. We had lots of discussions and clearly presented the issues. They did not rely on a brand name but get business because of word of mouth recommendations from customers. They do not advertise and hence the costs are a bit lower. They contribute 10% of the cost of the sail to environmental causes. They get the sails made in one of the largest lofts in the world (same one used by e.g. Quantium and others). I have developed such a good rappour with the sailmaker that he will be joining us for Antigua Sailing week next year. http://www.islandplanetsails.com/ You can see the sails in one of the pictures of Stormsvale (S&S Swan 40). Note our logo on the main!! Thanks Matteo. and no I don't work for them

forgot to mention. The sails are great!!!!

mike from stormsvale

Thanks Gavin and Mike. I will avoid laminates.

Rob

Rob, I disagree with suggestions in the replied posts that dacron sails are better with regard to longevity.
My boat came equipped with a set of UK Halsey Tape Drive roller furling No1. and main which has full length battens on batt cars and also a set of dacron Norths made a couple of years previous to the UK's. The UK Halseys were made in '05 and are still in as-new condition. The reason, double sided taffeta. They are superb sails, and to my mind the quality of finish is far superior than anything else on the market today. They come with some very innovative little touches like the main's leech line adjustable from just above the clew-it's led via a pulley on the headboard back down the luff.
The No.1 also has a double foam tapes in it's luff and sets superbly rolled up to a No.3 in 25-30 knots. I did try out the Norths to see what they were like, they are now back in their bags in the garage at home. I had to do a lot of fiddling with halyard tension before getting the correct drafts on both the No1 & main. The UK's require very little adjustment to set good shapes and there is zero stretch.
I do agree with some comments in the replied posts, laminates can self-destruct very quickly, particularly without the protective taffeta and if you allow them to flog unnecessarily. When not in use they also have to be protected from UV light by a sail cover on the main and a good UV strip or genoa sock on the No.1. I use a genoa sock.
Before making a decision I suggest you have a chat with Butch Ulmer of UK Halsey. I'm so pleased with my UK's I'm going back to them for a Jib Top for distance racing and an 0.75oz Matrix spinnaker.
Since buying my boat last April I've put about 1800 miles on them right across the wind range and there is no wear or tear on them whatsoever. Once a month, and on a quiet evening, I bring the boat onto our club's pontoon and go up the rig to inspect them taking a hose up with me to wash the salt off. That's all they require, and to protect the longevity of sails, either dacron or laminate I think it's a good idea to wash away the inevitable salt build up regularly.
If you like I can take and email you a few photos of them for you to see the detail of finish and their condition after 6 years of use.

Best regards and fair winds,

Brian.
36/021 Seamróige

Hi Rob et al.
For clarity, my old main was Dacron and was from the 80s. It had made at least one trip over the Atlantic during its life and was been abused. The shape well.... but one could still sail with it. A laminate will not take that. I chose another Dacron main as I want to have the sail that I can repair and hold a reasonable shape for a longer period of time. If you push Dacron they stretch so in principle one could spoil the shape pretty easily. My North Penlam 145 from 2001 has been treated well,always covered and is not flogged. It recently split in the bag on a fold. Still has great shape. I am curious to see what it looks like next time it comes out of the bag. I agree the laminates are getting better wrt to UV but they at least at this point will not compete with a Dacron sail for longevity... if longevity means shape that is another issue. Cruisers tend to go Dacron while racers go laminate. I do like the laminates, but for my purposes have chosen a Dacron Main. At the beginning of this thread Rob highlighted his sailing choice was cruising. if I was racing I would like Brian I would also choose laminates!!
Brian I am glad to hear your laminates are holding up. Do you know how much they were used pre you?

Fair winds.... and well trimmed sails
Mike from Storm Svale

Dear all,

I am very happy to start my contrubution to this Forum as a sail designer (thanks Matteo for the invitation...), discussing such a fundamental question: woven Dacron vs. Laminated cloth. It's a very wide and open field, where is quite difficult to tell what is white from what is definitely black. 

In general, in either case the really important issue is to have an appropriate strength material, combined to a correct shape distribution. Material choice is often driven by different kind of preference criteria (look, "hand" softness, as well as price/durability). Beside all these, I would add the following consideration.
One particular sail aspect-ratio has a direct impact on the sheet tension required to effectively trim the Leech, to achieve the desired sail shape. The higher the aspect (i.e. longer Leech combined to shorter Foot), the higher the load. Consequently, stronger material choioce is required. 

Our S&S sailplans, like most in the I.O.R. days are recognizable: Mainsail is often very high aspect (P/E > 3.5), Fore Triangle is not: Headsails are much wider than taller (Luff/LP < 2.5, sometime 2.0). This I think is also due to one rule particularity: the spinnaker width and pole length are both directly associated to Fore Triangle base length "J". Shortening the Boom, Mainsail area is reduced, Headsail remain relatively big, as well as Downwind sail's area. For a given upwind rated sail area, a much larger kite for free seems to be a good deal... but let's go back to our Mainsail proportion, and associated material choice.

Sailing upwind fully loaded, such an High Aspect Mainsail Leech is experiencing an extarordinary high load, for the actual Mainsail area. For this reason, a woven Dacron Mainsail is normally made Cross-cut, using a cloth featuring very strong Fill yarns. Warp yarns are reletively lighter and loose, just to leave Fill yarns dead straight in the weaving process, to minimize material stretch. All single panels Fill yarns are joined together, remaining aligned along the Leech to transfer the load up from the Clew without distorting the sail.

I don't think an High Aspect Dacron Main can be made with other panel layout than Cross Cut. Radial layouts require a strong Warp material. Any woven material can't have a warp yarn as strong as the Fill yarn can easily be made, for one basic reason. In the weaving process, warps are moving alternately to allow the Fill spool to pass through across the loom. Warp yarns can not have alot of tension simply because the loom would consequently brake, or run extremely slow. For this reason, to make a good performance Warp cloth, as requred to build an effective High Aspect Mainsail, it's much easier to rely on fiber inherent modulus than yarn tension. Fiber modulus is one of Laminated cloth's most important ingredients, without any weaving process constraints.

Laminated sails can be made in two different ways, generally speaking. Either cut in panels stepping into different weight materials, or having a whole integral structure laminated inside external films, or polyester taffeta layers to protect from chafe, at some extra weight cost.
Without going too deep inside this wide subject (let's leave it for another time), I'd rather return to Aspect Ratio criteria to conclude the discussion.

Low Aspect sails, that are mainly Genoas in our S&S wonderful world, experience very different load distribution compared to Main and Blade Jibs. Sheet load is aiming much more inside the sail, not anymore along the very Leech. Being Foot much longer, Leech is remaining relatively shorter. Consequently sheet load is shared with a different balance. Although Genoas are larger in area, less strength is required along their Leech. For this reason, Genoas can be made either Cross-Cut using more balanced materials (i.e. less "Fill oriented"), or Triradial using Warp oriented materials. In my recent experience with identical sail plan Low-aspect Headsails, the same design has proven valid using either laminated polyester, or relatively "strong Warp" woven Dacron. At this point, in my opinion the choice could also involve the particular taste for a more "Classical" sail or a more "Technical", keeping the option of doing it all white (taffeta protected, durable and softer) just like a Dacron sail, or finished with external shining Mylar films. This is leaving visible the material internal structure, and looks in my opinion much less appealing hoisted on our true beauties.

Hi Rob, This is a re-post that we did in 14 January, 2011 titled Dacron vs Laminates: Here on Proximity, we are using a set of UK Halsey Passage Maker II laminates. They are mylar, spectra, carbon tape cruising sails. We had them about four years on San Francisco Bay, then in September, 2009, we went cruising with them. We did Mexico then across the Pacific, and we are now in New Zealand. We had the sails inspected by the local Doyle loft. They are still in fine shape with many seasons ahead of them. Will they last as long as dacron? I doubt it, but they have already lasted as long as dacron would have kept their shape. They are also much lighter than our old dacrons, so there is less weight aloft. So, there you have the two schools of thought. The dacrons will last maybe 20 years, but loose their shape, and are heavy. A good laminate will have near perfect shape until its life is over, and I guess that is the unknown, but I'm sure it will not be 20 years. Bottom line is that we too, are happy, and would make the same decision again. Either way, you'll be happy. New sails are wonderful!! By the way, if you would like to see more of these sails, we have a website of our travels with many photos. It is www.sailproximity.com Best Always, Rod and Elisabeth

So, Rob, there are some really good modern sails out there. I don't think North's Norlam is so robust, and I don't know about the others. But I can say that after well more than 8000 cruising miles, we are really happy, and are continuing the push westward....but then again, another season in Fiji sounds good too. Best Always!

Dear All,

I am planning to change my 140 headsail. I have different quotation but the sailmaker talk of Hydra-net. Hydra-net is said to be as shape resistant than laminate but is still a "soft cloth" that would have the Dacron advantage without the disadvantage. It is also the most expensive quote. Has anybody experience with this tissue?

Ludovic
Rumtrader, 47/59